Author Topic: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?  (Read 10253 times)

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Tonymitsu

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Re: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2010, 04:50:18 PM »
I keep reading the FoP's abilities backwards and forwards, and this is the phrase that sticks out at me the most:


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The fiend now acts as though it is the creature in all respects, until it loses or relinquishes control.


The rest of the paragraph after that reads like a slightly modified polymorph (you keep your mental stats, keep only spell-like abilities, and alignment dependent effects are based on your alignment, not the creature's).


Nothing about the ability suggests you bestow any other part of yourself onto the controlled creature.


If you are currently "acting as though you are the creature in all respects", then this creature you're possessing has no idea how to use your legacy weapon.  The only reason you take negative levels from a possessed creatures holy weapon is because is because it is an alignment dependent effect, which you have now changed.
I'm getting exactly the opposite meaning from that phrase. "acts as if it is the creature" to me means "acts as if the creature is his body". He's replacing the creature's mind/will with his own. He doesn't behave like the creature (which is what you seem to be reading into it). He has his own mind. He is just acting with a different body.

This interpretation makes a lot more sense to me. The creature doesn't have to know how to use the legacy weapon, because it isn't. The FOP is using it. It just happens to be using it with the creature's body.

The body is basically like a glove for the FoP. Even if he's wearing it, he's still the one controlling the weapon. The glove has no say so in the matter at all.


If that's the case then why do you keep the use of only your spell-like abilities?  Why don't you keep everything mental from yourself (manifesting, full-spellcasting, or any other abilities) while simultaneously gaining the benefit of everything physical from the host; like feats, extraordinary's, and relevant supernatural's he has?


Flavor-wise, your reasoning makes some sense, but purely as written, if you are considered the creature and not yourself "in all respects" then he shouldn't be able to gain the benefit of something that is yours, not his.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2010, 04:53:53 PM »
If that's the case then why do you keep the use of only your spell-like abilities?  Why don't you keep everything mental from yourself (manifesting, full-spellcasting, or any other abilities) while simultaneously gaining the benefit of everything physical from the host; like feats, extraordinary's, and relevant supernatural's he has?
Feats aren't physical. They represent knowledge. You do basically keep everything "physical", including things like Regeneration (automatic abilities). And you do keep spellcasting (you keep class abilities).

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Flavor-wise, your reasoning makes some sense, but purely as written, if you are considered the creature and not yourself "in all respects" then he shouldn't be able to gain the benefit of something that is yours, not his.
I don't know what you're talking about here. Could you be more specific?

The reason it is worded like Polymorph is because it is like Polymorph. They both replace your body with another body, but when you take actions with the new body it is still you acting. The main difference is the source (and the fact that you keep "passive" abilities like Regeneration with Magic Jar, and get a separate hit point pool).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 04:55:24 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2010, 05:38:42 PM »
I don't know what you're talking about here. Could you be more specific?

The reason it is worded like Polymorph is because it is like Polymorph. They both replace your body with another body, but when you take actions with the new body it is still you acting. The main difference is the source (and the fact that you keep "passive" abilities like Regeneration with Magic Jar, and get a separate hit point pool).

I can try, but it'll mostly involve explaining my thought process... which takes a while

Basically, whenever I go to interpret the rules for an ability I take the approach of "The whole is equal to the sum of it's parts".

Thus:
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At 6th level, a fiend can attempt exert control over a creature it is possessing.
...followed by an explanation of how he assumes control, and how long it lasts.

This paragraph references the 4th level ability of possessing a creature, so those are the basic rules that apply.  Therefore a change mentioned here overrides the rules already set in place:
-For the purposes of affecting the fiend as a target, the fiend does not exist.
-He can take only mental actions
-the fiend becomes "part of the creature".  This is a confusing statement.  Is it here to imply some significant connection to the creature?  Or is it here as fluff to help explain why the fiend cannot be targeted or harmed?

Moving on:
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When in control of a victim, the fiend of possession has access to all the creature's abilities, skills, feats, and spell knowledge.

This phrasing of this establishes a precedent of total mental control:  Not only is the fiend aware of all the creature's abilities, it can now order the creature to use them as it sees fit.
Mechanically, does it gain those abilities itself?  No, it simply has access to them, via the body it is in control of.
It does raise some questions though, such as, "assuming it gains control of the creature's spell knowledge, what happens to it's own?"

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The fiend now acts as though it is the creature in all respects, until it loses or relinquishes control.

This further reinforces the previous interpretation.  The fiend is in no way imparting himself or his being onto the possessed creature, or supplanting the creature with himself and causing it cease to be.  He is simply making use of the creature as a puppet.

This also seems to override the previously mentioned rule of the fiend being allowed to make use of its mental actions, since they are an ability of him, not the creature he is possessing, and he is now acting as that creature in all respects.


Next, after the ability score mechanics, comes this:
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It can make use of its own spell-like abilities as well.

Why does this need to be mentioned?
That's right, because we implied earlier he loses access to his own abilities in favor of the creature he is using as a puppet.
This suggests he can use the puppet to channel is spell-like abilities and retain some of his original power.

Finally the description finishes with regards to the fiend keeping the creature's base type, but keeping his own alignment.  This is probably the most poorly worded part of the entire class.
It states that the fiend itself is affected by things that affect the puppet creature's type except in regards to alignment effects, which are dependent on the fiends alignment.
Therefore, if I were to fireball the possessed creature, the fiend is the one taking the HP damage, not the puppet he is in control of.  Not only does this completely override the rules of the 4th level ability, in addition to contradicting reasonable interpretations of the 6th level ability up to this point, but it also, in my opinion, it makes it drastically weaker in almost every way.

The only logical conclusion I could come to was that they were referring to the puppet creature being affected, and not the fiend itself.  So mechanically, the fiend supplants the puppet's alignment with his own.  In following, a possessed creature with a holy weapon would immediately gain some negative levels, not the fiend itself, whereupon any reasonable fiend would have him discard the weapon.




...But anyway, that's just my interpretation of what's going on here...

Prime32

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Re: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2010, 06:16:13 PM »
It doesn't seem odd that a possessing fiend can access its host's skills while still being in control. Ever read, say, Animorphs?
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snakeman830

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Re: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2010, 12:46:47 AM »
It doesn't seem odd that a possessing fiend can access its host's skills while still being in control. Ever read, say, Animorphs?
So that's what they were: alien Fiends of Posession.
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Ramaloke

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Re: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2010, 02:56:39 AM »
Play an Imascari with the otherwordly feat and the Ritual of Alignment (evil), that qualifies him for fiend of possession once he meats the will save req. What level is the game being played at?
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telehax

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Re: Do we have any Fiend of Possession resources?
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2010, 07:37:49 AM »
It doesn't seem odd that a possessing fiend can access its host's skills while still being in control. Ever read, say, Animorphs?
So that's what they were: alien Fiends of Posession.

Personally I find those are better statted out as pimped out mind leeches.