Author Topic: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)  (Read 2390 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Perihelion

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • Email
New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« on: February 17, 2010, 07:24:25 PM »
I know 3.5 isn't a good system for extensive social interaction, but it's what we're using, and I'm looking for this campaign to have a good amount of both intrigue and beating down monsters. I have about one session of DMing experience, though, and while I seem to have a decent handle on running combats, the social end is harder than I expected. Long story short, my PCs are about to go to the City of Brass to hunt down a guy they think is a dishonest merchant who's run off with some valuable merchandise but is actually a spy who was outed and murdered. I want them to follow a trail of clues to his corpse and then piece together his identity and the bit of information he was killed to hide, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly I should go about it. I was figuring there'd be a number of NPCs who know things, but there's gotta be a more interesting way to go about this than having the party go from one to the other making diplomacy checks. Anyone have any tips for making intrigue more interesting? I'd like to keep it tense and mysterious, because this sets the stage for things later. What sort of unraveling mysteries or social intrigues have resonated with your players in the past, and how did you set them up and run them?

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 07:33:38 PM »
If your players have access to spells and you don't have a deity protecting the info it is as good as theirs. Divination magic kills all suspense and mystery.

My best suggestion is to be creative with the skills. Maybe some of the info can't be found through a person they will have to trace the dead man's steps (survial & track), bypass locked doors (open lock), find hidden clues he left when he suspected he was a target (search), ect....
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 05:55:45 AM »
One trick you could use is to set up the start, end and key points(conclusive clues towards the final result) for the investigation, and leave the rest to be relatively freeform, I find the trouble with investigating players is they can quite persistently pursue dead end or nonexistent clues. Best to make the in between steps as freeform as possible.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 10:03:01 AM »
If you're doing a clue-based game, consider leaving more clues than you think is needed.  The reason for this is if the players solve the mystery too early or easily, it can be a let down for you, but it's better than them growing frustrated as they sit in the same dead end for three hours of game time.  Better to have an easy adventure than a frustrating one.

Of course, you might worry this will hurt the verisimilitude of the game.  What mastermind villain leaves all of these clues behind?  The beauty is, once the players pick up one of the trails, they'll follow it and won't look for the others!  So far as they're concerned, there only was one clue, because they stopped looking for the others.  So lay down something like three or four clues to get from point A to B.  Hopefully they'll find one and end up at B and be all proud of themselves for their detective work.

Also, try not to railroad the PCs too much.  These types of story-based games have a tendency to be too linear (A leads to B which leads to C which leads to the climactic fight!).  If the PCs find a way to skip from A to C, let them!  Be happy that they outsmarted you.


If your players have access to spells and you don't have a deity protecting the info it is as good as theirs. Divination magic kills all suspense and mystery.
This is very true.  Also, things like a Paladin's Detect Evil can ruin a lot of mystery-oriented plots.

Depending on the nature of the game, you may want to either do away with alignment, change how it works (make it more subjective, and "action based"), or change how alignment detection works.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 10:21:54 AM »
One other thing you can do with providing excessive clues is to simply annihilate the extras over time, as the culprit or mere happenstance wipes out those.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Black Knight

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 01:46:10 PM »
Don't try to fit your mystery into the mechanics of the game.  You can run a flavorful murder mystery without a single Diplomacy roll.  Let the interactions between your PCs and NPCs happen naturally.

The NPCs that have information your party needs - explore why they would be willing to share that information.  Some would give up what they know freely.  Others might need some form of persuasion.  And if they interview the actual murderer, he would give misleading information, if any at all.

Also, how do the PCs know that these individual NPCs have the information that they need?

A possible lead in would be searching for the item in places that would buy the stolen item.  Since it was a merchant they are looking for, checking with the Merchant's Guild in town would be a logical starting point.  There they could find out that he was not a member.
If you are an ethical person, you do the right thing even when no one is watching...

Hallack

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 02:16:19 PM »
but but... the skills supposedly reflect your ability in interacting with those npcs so while I in life may be a crass anti-social brute my PC could have a silver tongue that could talk a mom into giving up her kid.  I may not be able to RP that as well as my PC's skill would reflect.

That said, integrating usefulness of skills and spells and being aware of their consequences is huge for this sort of game. 

If Characters have skills in the appropriate areas it can make it easier for the DM to share information.  ie the party makes a Gather Information roll and rolls well.  The DM determines that in that success they learn X,Y, and Z facts.  In these cases it is very easy for a skills ability to function to outstrip the players ability to reflect those skills.  This is part of how the game is supposed to work.   Of course the other side of that is high skills could allow players to gain bits of info or insight that might not otherwise be available if the getting was based on the player's (not PC's) ability to talk/get the info from the DM (not NPC/environment).

Hope that is some help.
Placeholder - T'tosc

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 02:37:48 PM »
While i understand why you recommend it Black Knight i would advise against letting the players action override the game mechanics. In the games i've been in it always causes trouble because it puts some players at a mechanical advantage over others. If I have the gift of gab and could convince a man with no eyes he needs a 70" TV then why would i ever put a single rank in diplomacy or bluff? That means i can be good at those skills and put the points in something else that would be more useful, while the poor guy who can't talk without stuttering has to invest heavily in those skills to be able to use them.

The best practice i've seen is to get the player to give the DM a pitch as to what their character is getting at and allow that to apply a small circumstance bonus or penalty to the actual roll. Also don't use the diplomacy rules as written, they make it too easy to just turn everyone fanatically loyal to you. There is a better variation i think at Giant in the Playground, but i would have to look it up.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Black Knight

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 05:32:46 PM »
The OP already knows that skill checks can be made for what his PCs can do socially.  This post was about making it more interesting than a series of Diplomancy rolls.

In the games that I run, I do a mix of both.  Players that are more silver-tongued typically enjoy more personal interactions with the NPCs (which may or may not include a skill check during the conversation or at the end to influence their reaction/information they devulge), while those we are uncomfortable with RPing typically tell me what they are trying to accomplish and then roll the appropriate skill.

The player actions enhances the game mechanics... not overrides it.  And if you want a game that is tense and mysterious, that's much easier to accomplish with not worrying about a bad roll screwing up your storyline.

Cheers.
If you are an ethical person, you do the right thing even when no one is watching...

Hallack

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 06:23:43 PM »
Don't try to fit your mystery into the mechanics of the game.  You can run a flavorful murder mystery without a single Diplomacy roll.  Let the interactions between your PCs and NPCs happen naturally.

Ah, had me scared.  Thought you meant ignoring skills and simply giving results based on player ability.  :)  That would especially such for various skill monkeys...

Sorry, back on Topic. 

If you don't want to deal with Divinations and such then having that in place in the beginning is likely the best answer.  As in, not having casters with access to such spells if it will ruin the game.  If the players want a mystery of that type then they will be fine avoiding those abilities.
Placeholder - T'tosc

Perihelion

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • Email
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 03:44:56 PM »
Thanks for all the great advice! The tip about planting extra clues is a great one, and I'll make sure to do that and vary the activities necessary to get the clues. Now, if I can just get this damned adventure finished by tonight...

On an unrelated note, does anyone know how adding class levels to monsters affects CR?

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 04:32:36 PM »
fairly certain it is 1 for 1.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren


Aharon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 224
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 10:25:12 AM »
Warning: Didn't read all posts.

Just a response to the use of Divinations.
You could also create a situation where they are necessary.

Example: Person has been killed and can't be resurrected.
Goal: Resurrect Person.
Reason: Person has been turned into a zombie/other undead and sent to the Plane of negative energy.
Finding out what happened is possible with divinations, but actually finding the corpse is impossible even with the most powerful divinations (Discern Location, for example, can't reveal location, community, county, country or continent, but only that the corpse is on the Plane of negative energy...

The way to do it would probably to find the murderer, who hopefully has left some avenue to find the corpse, should he need it.

Actually used that, and the players liked it.
By clicking this link, you open a pop-up, but I get a eurocent for my current wish, the 5th book of the Wheel of Time series. Please note that this only works if you leave the pop-up opened till it has finished loading. Thank you!

lowtide

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2010, 02:27:14 PM »
What level will the PC's be?

Why are the PC's tracking down this individual?

Make sure to give the NPC's interesting motivations; more than just "make sure the PC's don't succeed".

Consider the situation as a puzzle, rather than a single path where one clue always leads to the next. Each clue leads to many other clues (or back to clues that the PC's already know). This allows the characters much more freedom and it also allows you more freedom as the DM.

Sometimes NPC's have been wrongly informed or have misread a situation. Diplomacy or Sense Motive won't immediately resolve this situation.

Make sure you account for PC's with high Sense Motive and Diplomacy checks and magical means. By "account for" I mean make sure that PC's with these abilities get to use them. This is their time in the spotlight, using their abilities should be required, not thwarted. That is probably the biggest thing you should keep in mind. You should design your adventure so PC's get to use their abilities, not in spite of their abilities. Don't make your adventure succeed or fail on on successful or failed skill check.

After all that, no adventure ever survives contact with the PC's, that is why it best to have interesting motivations for NPC's because once the PC's go off the rails it easier (and more fun) for you to figure out what happens next.

And finally, you don't have to be perfect. If the PC's happen to find a clever way to undo all your work. You can just tell them, "Wow, that was smart, I never thought of that. Unfortunately I have this big adventure planned and I don't want it to go to waste. I'm going to reward you for such a clever plan but I have to thwart it else we all just playing xbox tonight." It is also acceptable to do this behind the scenes by having NPC's spend resources retroactively to prevent something from happening which you didn't think of (don't abuse this to prevent everything).

Oops, and remember NPC's also have access to divination and are aware of it too.


lowtide

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 02:27:42 PM »
One more thing, let us know how it goes.

archangel.arcanis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
    • Email
Re: New DM, looking for tips on running intrigue. (3.5)
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 06:05:21 PM »
Quote
Don't make your adventure succeed or fail on on successful or failed single skill check.

i wanted to amend that for you. If they are repeatedly failing and aren't trying something different then they shouldn't be handed victory. I'm a huge opponent of handing out gold medals to all competitors at an event and this would be the same thing. Don't reward failure just make sure they have other ways to solve the problem. Also look at how they try and recover from failures. If they failed a sense motive, and the player knows, then don't put ranks in sense motive the player isn't interested in using the skill or thinks you will hand them something else. If they do put ranks in it then they want to beat that challenge and give them another chance some how when you can.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren