Author Topic: Most Overrated PrCs  (Read 21995 times)

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JaronK

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Most Overrated PrCs
« on: February 16, 2010, 08:54:44 PM »
So, I was thinking about what the most overrated PrC is, and I think I've got an answer.  Of course, I'm sure many will disagree... after all, it wouldn't be overrated if people didn't think highly of it.  But my vote?  Frenzied Berserker.

I mean think about it.  What does this class give you?  It gives a bunch of melee damage over 10 levels, but forces your party to find ways to control you when you go berserk and opens the possibility of killing your own.  And the damage it gives?  Really not that much compared to what you could have had.  Consider the class FB build:

Orc Fighter 4/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Frenzied Berserker 10.  Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, and EWP: Spiked Chain or Meteor Hammer.  Make your weapon valorous.  Okay, so you get 6:1 returns on Power Attack, +10 Strength from Frenzy, and an extra attack while Frenzied.  With a Valorous Weapon and Headlong Rush, you're doing triple charge damage, so at level 16 you're looking at 288 damage per hit from Power Attack, +21 damage from the extra strength, and you've got 5 attacks.  All this whenever you charge.  Very nice.  If your strength when Raging (but before Frenzy) at this level was 35 (which is pretty reasonable) and your weapon was +5 (easy enough), you're looking at 5 attacks for around 400 damage per hit.  Very impressive, and it will likely one hit kill any enemy... or party member. 

But now let's look at the exact same build, and just drop Frenzied Berserker from the equation.  We don't need Cleave, Intimidating Rage, or Destructive Rage anymore (but we'll keep two of them anyway).  Also, we can switch over to Whirling Frenzy, which doesn't work with Frenzy but does work on its own.  Also, I believe an errata or FAQ stated that you can't Frenzy while mounted, but we're not Frenzied now... so we'll drop Leap Attack and go with a mounted option.  So now we'll go with Zhentarium Fighter 10/Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 6.  Nice and simple.  For feats, we've got Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Extra Rage, Intimidating Rage, Imperious Command, Cleave, and Great Cleave.  Whatever, I was running low on ideas for feats at the end there.  With a Valorous Lance, Spirited Charge, and Headlong Rush we now do quintuple damage on the charge.  Our strength goes down due to the loss of Frenzy, but we still have the extra attack (since Whirling Frenzy is in play).  Our Power Attack returns drop to just 2:1 due to the loss of Leap Attack and Supreme Power Attack, but we've got that tasty multiplier.  So now we've got 32 damage from power attack, +18 damage from strength, +5 damage from our weapon, and an extra 1d8 damage from the Lance itself, for just 59.5 damage on average... but then multiply that by 5 to just under 300 damage.  It's not as much as the Frenzied Berserker, but here's the main point: it's still enough to kill easily.  And now we're not screwing our party over if we go berserk at the wrong time, plus we can swift action anyone to cowering if we want and we had plenty of feats to play with.

So how can the FB be such an amazing overpowered class if we can still do the same job with just the base classes involved?  Especially since we don't get the rediculous drawback of "you might slaughter your whole party?" 

Now, I'm not saying it's a horrible class by any stretch.  But for most overrated?  I think it's a winner.

The other option is Radiant Servant of Pelor.  Yeah, you don't lose anything but a few hitpoints, and that's fine, and it's a solid choice... but what you gain is the ability to use in combat cures a little better.  Since when have in combat cures been something worth cheering about?  By the time your ability to cast really awesome cures comes around, you've already got Heal.

JaronK

bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 09:08:16 PM »
You can Whirling Frenzy and Frenzy at the same time.
Stopping the FB requires planning but is not difficult. Marbles work great. And at higher levels a Will save DC 20 is trivial.

You're right that you can't make Ride checks. But...
Quote from: Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (Part Five)
Intelligent Mounts

According to the Dungeon Master's Guide, a mount with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher acts like an NPC ally rather than a mount. Riding such an ally works much like riding an aggressive mount in battle (see Part Two), except that you don't have to make a Ride check to act while riding. (If your mount carries you willingly, the ride is smooth enough so your actions aren't restricted.) You also cannot make a Ride check to control the mount's actions, but you can make a Diplomacy (or possibly a Wild Empathy) check to get the mount to accept your direction. If you do, your mount acts just like a mount trained for combat riding.
...you can ride the druid!

Maybe it is a little overrated. But as far as Martial classes go it's still top tier.

Bozwevial

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 09:13:54 PM »
You're right that you can't make Ride checks. But...
...you can ride the druid!

The trouble comes when your best efforts to soothe the FB fail and the druid is suddenly the closest target.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 09:17:11 PM »
The trouble comes when your best efforts to soothe the FB fail and the druid is suddenly the closest target.

Then you have the FB deck is Will save. By, say, having the Druid buff him.

JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 09:32:27 PM »
You can Whirling Frenzy and Frenzy at the same time.

Whirling Frenzy specifically says it doesn't stack with Rage or similar abilities.  No dice.

Quote
Stopping the FB requires planning but is not difficult. Marbles work great. And at higher levels a Will save DC 20 is trivial.

Right, it requires planning.  The best lower level methods for stopping it require that the FB not be flying (grease and marbles) and that sucks for a melee.  And you have to spend feats and resources to get up to that DC 20... it's not trivial, but it can be made so with non trivial resource expendature.

And you can't use Diplomacy in a Rage or Frenzy, so riding someone really doesn't work so well at all.

JaronK

bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 09:44:11 PM »
I never knew that about Whirling Frenzy. Interesting...

And you don't need the diplomacy. It's an option if you want to direct the mount.

And how trivial it is entirely depends on the level. At low levels you're not flying often and marbles/grease work. At high levels you have the cleric put Resistance on you.

I agree with you that it's overrated. I think you're being a little to harsh though.

Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 09:47:14 PM »
I thought anything below 8:1 power attack returns were subpar?  you get that high with just leap attack and FB.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 09:48:18 PM »
I have three.

Fatespinner
Highlight: with 5 levels you can force a like an effective +14 DC to your save or die spell one per day!
Me: For one damn feat I can cast Geas as a standard action, screw saves. Screw Fatespinner.

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil
Highlight: People arguing, IotSV makes you invincible to spells, or it works like prismatic wall and the veil blocks ALL spells like it says it does.
Me: Screw this class too. It says it works like the wall and spells don't pass. Also since the veil doesn't effect items so it's like saying hit me please.

Spellwarp Sniper
Highlights: +2d6 with rays, bunch of other crap abilities.
Me: Warmage(dragonlance) gives +3 dmg per die for the same dip, Stormcaster gives +1 dmg per die and adds a stunning effect. Srsly if you're going take five levels in it just to try applying the sniper thing to ray of stupidity you're probably failing somewhere to start with.

Bonus 4th
Spellsword
Highlights: -10% ASF.
Me: Requires all martial weapons proficiency & heavy armor, IE a dip into fighter or something there of which is horrible. Warblade>Crap, go JPM too. Also and just buy feycraft/twilight/thistledown/mithral/shadow/whatever armor and sport 0% ASF armor anyway. Like this may come as a horrible shock to you, but feycraft and thistledown both cost 750gp and reduce ASF by -10% which makes the level wasted in spellsword and the level wasted in a poor melee class so dang expensive you would wonder why you didn't search the word 'gish' and 'D&D' in google before.
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[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 09:59:19 PM »
I thought anything below 8:1 power attack returns were subpar?  you get that high with just leap attack and FB.

D&D doesn't multiply  normally. Leap attack is not x2, it's +100%. Leap Attack + FB gets you to 5:1.

snakeman830

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 09:59:32 PM »
Endurance + Steadfast Determination is a staple for Frenzied Beserkers.  It drops their chance of failing that will save to 5%, since they ALWAYS have a massive Con score (want to make sure you've got the hp, after all).

Oh, and here's something else on Frenzied Beserker: Deathless Frenzy.  You can get close to the damage without using the PrC, but you can't be anywhere near as hard to take down.  You might get a Delay Death spell from the Cleric, but it's a pain in the ass if someone decides to dispel it.  The advantage of the Frenzied Beserker is superior damage and incredible durability in one, impossible to dispel package that is self-reliant.  A properly built FB can pick up any old two-handed weapon and dish out the pain and also be incredibly likely to stop himself from hurting allies without any buffs or magic items.  That is why the FB is rated so highly.

Let's take a Human Lion Totem Barbarian 10/Frenzied Beserker 10.  Feats are Power Attack, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper.  16 base in Str and in Con with 4 level up bonuses in Str for a total of 20.  Not much, right?  Guess again.  Raging and Frenzying, it goes to 34.  On a charge attack, he'll dish out a painful 98 damage per attack before accounting for the weapon on a +34 attack bonus.  He could have just grabbed a quarterstaff to deal about 500 damage (average is 507.5)  in a full attack.  Any two-handed weapon at all.  Heck, he could even wield a one-handed weapon in both hands to deal that damage.  He doesn't care.  And his will save to break out?  He's got +12 bonus, so he breaks out 55% of the time.  Doesn't sound great on this part, but remember this is pre-magic of any kind.  This is spending 0 gp, if you use a quarterstaff.  Also, only 1 level of Barbarian is really necessary, so you can swap 9 of those levels to whatever you like.  Alternatively, removing a level of Frenzied Beserker for another level of Barbarian boosts the damage by another 5, the attack bonus by 1, and increases the Will save bonus by 2 (so 10% more likely to succeed).

What does it take to get a similar result without FB?  A heck of a lot more and a heck of a lot more cash.

Note: Leap Attack says it doubles your PA damage.  Frenzied Beserker doesn't multiply the damage, it specifically changes the rate that attack bonus is traded for damage, so the return is indeed 8:1.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 10:08:56 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
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hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
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[/spoiler]

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JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 10:36:10 PM »
Leap Attack: +100% power attack returns.  FB:  +100% power attack returns.  Note that these are both errataed, so if you're not looking at the errata you need to check that out.  Base power attack:  2:1 with a two handed weapon.  So the base 2:1 is doubled by leap attack, and the base amount is added again (a tripling now) by Frenzied Berserker.  That's 6:1 returns on Power Attack.  Again, both add 100% of the base damage amount (2:1).  2+2+2 = 6.

As for Endurace + Steadfast Determination: that's two feats, which is a non trivial resource cost, and doesn't get you all the way there.  That's precisely what I meant.  You can absolutely deal with the Frenzy thing to avoid killing your party members, but it adds cost, in addition to the feat investment (did you really want Cleave and Destuctive Rage?  Intimidating Rage is pretty awesome with Imperious Command and Power Attack you wanted anyway, but that's a total of four feats you've now spent just to get in the class and fix the problems with it).

Now, Deathless Frenzy is good.  So's Inspire Frenzy.  I don't deny that.  But you're spending 10 levels here... how much party buffing and unkillability would you get out of 10 levels of Crusader instead?  And if you could get something much better out of 10 levels of a base class, is the PrC really so great?

SorO:  I agree on Fatespinner that it doesn't do much... it's mostly just cheap to get into.  But I rarely see it called out as awesome, so I'm not sure it's overrated.

JaronK

snakeman830

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 10:43:15 PM »
Yeah, I meant Cleave, not Intimidating Rage.  Steadfast Determination is pretty much a staple for tanks anyway, so I don't think it's two feats trying to "fix the class".

Even with it only being a 6:1 return (I was unaware of that change in the erratta), a FB is still dealing more damage without magic than many do with it.  I challenge you to do a build that deals >300 damage in a round without spending a single copper piece or using any magic.  When you add magic to the mix, things get even better.

This guy also cannot die from hit point damage while frenzying (he auto-succeeds on the Fort saves for massive damage).

And I'm one that has never played a Frenzied Beserker.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 10:49:13 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2010, 11:21:29 PM »
Yeah, I meant Cleave, not Intimidating Rage.  Steadfast Determination is pretty much a staple for tanks anyway, so I don't think it's two feats trying to "fix the class".

I find it too expensive in terms of feats for most builds.  I'd rather dip Warblade and use Moment of Perfect Mind... which sadly doesn't work in Frenzy.

Quote
  I challenge you to do a build that deals >300 damage in a round without spending a single copper piece or using any magic.  When you add magic to the mix, things get even better.

Heh, I can't resist, but it's off topic:  [spoiler]Feral Half Minotaur Orc Overwhelming Attack Monk 14 with two flaws, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Battle Jump, Multiattack, Headlong Rush, Snap Kick, Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike).  If your base strength was 16 before racial modifiers to start and you put 3 points into strength as you leveled up, your strength would be 35 for a +12 strength mod.  Your attacks on the charge, before calculating magic, are unarmed strikes for +22/+22/+22/+22/+17 (4d8+12), claws for +20/+20/+20/+20 (2d6+6 ), gore for +20 (1d8+6 ) and an automatic rend (if you hit with the two claw attacks) for 4d6+24.  This all is added to +20 damage per attack from Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack, and then everything is doubled by Battle Jump since you can bounce high enough to cause it all day long with your jump mod, and tripled by Headlong Rush. 


You average 150 damage per unarmed strike hit, 99 damage per claw hit, and 91.5 from the gore hit, plus if the two claws hit you add in an extra 114 in rending damage.  You've got a total of 10 attacks (11 if you count the rend).  If even half of those land you're still looking at around 500-750 damage on average... and that's not even counting criticals (which you should land once every other turn simply due to volume of attacks).  And that's with pure Monk.  Let's face it, doing 300+ damage without gear isn't terribly hard, when using charge tactics.  I could have gotten that a lot higher with Shou Disciple and maybe Vow of Poverty.  Point being, high damage before gear with charging isn't impossible at all without Frenzied Berserker.[/spoiler]

JaronK

Anklebite

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 11:26:12 PM »
I was unaware of that part of the CW errata. do you think they did it in response to all the ubercharger builds? regardless, it appears that I was mistaken.  oh well, it is not very often that a mere 200 damage or so changed whether or not a 1000 DPR charger kills something.
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Negative Zero

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 11:35:42 PM »
I have three.

Fatespinner
Highlight: with 5 levels you can force a like an effective +14 DC to your save or die spell one per day!
Me: For one damn feat I can cast Geas as a standard action, screw saves. Screw Fatespinner.

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil
Highlight: People arguing, IotSV makes you invincible to spells, or it works like prismatic wall and the veil blocks ALL spells like it says it does.
Me: Screw this class too. It says it works like the wall and spells don't pass. Also since the veil doesn't effect items so it's like saying hit me please.

Spellwarp Sniper
Highlights: +2d6 with rays, bunch of other crap abilities.
Me: Warmage(dragonlance) gives +3 dmg per die for the same dip, Stormcaster gives +1 dmg per die and adds a stunning effect. Srsly if you're going take five levels in it just to try applying the sniper thing to ray of stupidity you're probably failing somewhere to start with.

Bonus 4th
Spellsword
Highlights: -10% ASF.
Me: Requires all martial weapons proficiency & heavy armor, IE a dip into fighter or something there of which is horrible. Warblade>Crap, go JPM too. Also and just buy feycraft/twilight/thistledown/mithral/shadow/whatever armor and sport 0% ASF armor anyway. Like this may come as a horrible shock to you, but feycraft and thistledown both cost 750gp and reduce ASF by -10% which makes the level wasted in spellsword and the level wasted in a poor melee class so dang expensive you would wonder why you didn't search the word 'gish' and 'D&D' in google before.


I mostly agree with you, but there are a couple things I want to point out: First off, Geas doesn't do anything notable until they don't follow your instructions for an entire day. So, yeah, the fight's over by then.
Spellwarp Sniper's biggest treat is turning Wings of Cover's daze from a reflex save into a ranged touch attack, which is pretty notable.

Otherwise good points.

JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 11:41:28 PM »
I was unaware of that part of the CW errata. do you think they did it in response to all the ubercharger builds? regardless, it appears that I was mistaken.  oh well, it is not very often that a mere 200 damage or so changed whether or not a 1000 DPR charger kills something.

Which is actually part of my point... you do enough damage without Frenzied Berserker that the extra little bit of damage FB gives you on the charge isn't really worth 10 levels and having to deal with the killing your party issue.  It may be okay for some builds, but FB is hyped up as one of the ultimate melee PrCs.  Hence my claim that it's really overrated.

JaronK

wotmaniac

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 11:42:55 PM »
The other option is Radiant Servant of Pelor.  Yeah, you don't lose anything but a few hitpoints, and that's fine, and it's a solid choice... but what you gain is the ability to use in combat cures a little better.  Since when have in combat cures been something worth cheering about?  By the time your ability to cast really awesome cures comes around, you've already got Heal.

JaronK
I also have issue with your call on this one.  It's more than just healing -- undead will simply cease to exist in your presence (and that's without using any turn attempts)


oh yeah -- FB kicks ass!

[spoiler]
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I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
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JaronK

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2010, 12:10:57 AM »
The other option is Radiant Servant of Pelor.  Yeah, you don't lose anything but a few hitpoints, and that's fine, and it's a solid choice... but what you gain is the ability to use in combat cures a little better.  Since when have in combat cures been something worth cheering about?  By the time your ability to cast really awesome cures comes around, you've already got Heal.

JaronK
I also have issue with your call on this one.  It's more than just healing -- undead will simply cease to exist in your presence (and that's without using any turn attempts)

Here's the thing.  First off, it's 10 levels long, so it's a lot of levels not spent on things like Tenebrous Apostate/Divine Anima Mage, or Dweomerkeeper, or whatever.  And what does it actually give you?  First off, you can't waste undead without turn attempts... their positive energy burst uses up two.  Second, since when did high level Clerics worry a lot about undead anyway?  That's hardly a priority for them, as they can do it without RSoP just fine.  Third, by the time they get super duper cure spells (level 10) they're already at least a 16th level Cleric... who cares about Cures at that level?  Heal is your go to in combat healing spell, and Lesser Vigor/Vigor/Persistant Vigorous Circle handles your out of combat heals far better.

Now, the big thing about RSoP is that it's basically free.  Extra Turning is a feat that many Clerics want anyway.  Sun domain isn't particularly great, but you get another domain anyway... of course, you pretty much need Healing Domain to take advantage of the class abilities.  And you still get full turning and such.  That's good, don't get me wrong.  You're certainly not weakening yourself by taking this class.  But a lot of people see it as a cheesy overpowered class, and I really don't think it does that much that's actually powerful for a Cleric, you know?  There's nothing like Anima Mage or Dweomerkeeper hiding in this class.  It's a solid choice, but it's really overrated.

JaronK

Akalsaris

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2010, 01:43:22 AM »
My top picks:

Sublime Chord: I think it's overrated, since you don't qualify until 10th and it takes 48 skill ranks to get into the damned class, including 6R in profession (astrologer)...  It's not bad, but I don't see it as being anywhere near as flexible or strong as ur-priest, considering that you don't hit 9th level spells until 19th.

Mage of the Arcane Order: it's fine, and it adds a little flexibility to your wizard, but it takes 7 levels to get the full spellpool, and even then you need to leave slots unfilled and it takes a full-round action to call a spell.  Just little things that annoy me.  Especially when I could be taking so many other PrCs that fits my character's theme much better...

Rainbow Servant: the capstone kicks ass, but unless you're positive that you'll make it to at least 15th level in a campaign, it's a really mediocre PrC.  I see this mentioned a lot when people say they're starting a low level warmage, and it kind of irks me, because the complete awesome at the end doesn't justify playing through 14 levels of warmage first.

Bear Warrior: I see this mentioned a lot for barbarians, but without a lot of planning, the ability boosts from bear form often don't match up to having access to your magical equipment and magic weapons.  It's not terrible, but it shouldn't be part of many builds IMO.  Though I do like warshaper 4 along with this...

Dragonamedrake

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Re: Most Overrated PrCs
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 01:43:51 AM »
Yeah, I meant Cleave, not Intimidating Rage.  Steadfast Determination is pretty much a staple for tanks anyway, so I don't think it's two feats trying to "fix the class".

I find it too expensive in terms of feats for most builds.  I'd rather dip Warblade and use Moment of Perfect Mind... which sadly doesn't work in Frenzy.


No but Iron Heart Surge does work. Take one lvl of Warblade at lvl 7 or above and never worry about the slautering of your own party again.