Author Topic: So, about book piracy.  (Read 23737 times)

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AndyJames

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #120 on: October 12, 2008, 08:41:15 PM »
But, really, why stop there, altpersona?  Let's finish the story.

Bob, who spent a large amount of time and effort developing his grass, hoped that his efforts would be justified by being able to sell it to everyone in the neighborhood. 

Since Phil has so thoughtfully given the grass away to everyone else in the neighborhood, Bob finds that nobody else is interested in buying from him.

Bob says, "To hell with this--all that time and effort, and I got one sale."  Bob gives up on developing new strains of grass, and as a result, any future discoveries or improvements he might have made never happen.
Actually, it is more like this:

Bob developes his supergrass. He charges $1,000 per metre^2 for it. The less well-off would not be able to afford it, thus they would not be buying it.

Phill sells the same thing for $10/m^2. Those that could not afford Bob's buy from Phil.

Meanwhile, those that can afford Bob's buy Bob's because of a slick marketing campaign and so that they can have bragging rights (part of the marketing campaign) over those that don't.

Either way, those that bought from Phil would never have bought from Bob to begin with. It is disingenuous to say that Bob "lost their business" and therefore is out of the pocket.

adamjury

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2008, 12:13:18 AM »
Regarding "I pirate stuff to screw over a company I don't like" -- from my perspective as someone who's worked in publishing for 6+ years now, I think that if you really want to screw over a publisher you don't like, don't pirate their stuff. Don't talk about their stuff. Don't even slag their stuff off. Just stop talking about it and using it. By using and talking about someone's stuff -- even if you're not paying for it -- you're still promoting it, and making it more likely that other people are going to get exposed to it and buy it ... doing the exact opposite of what you'd like to happen.

JaxGaret

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #122 on: October 17, 2008, 03:33:48 AM »
Making a point badly is as worse than just not making a point; heaven forfend that on a board designed for communication, I expect people to communicate.

Quote
is as worse

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Talen Lee

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #123 on: October 17, 2008, 04:28:33 AM »
You caught that one? I thought I was aiming high.

EjoThims

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #124 on: October 17, 2008, 11:41:38 AM »
You caught that one? I thought I was aiming high.

It was quite obvious.

But really it only helped to disprove your point, because despite the lack of proper grammar, the intent of your message was clear.  ;)

Judging Eagle

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2008, 08:33:00 AM »
The only books for 3rd ed that I bought were the ones that I would use the most often, or even more than once.

Since I tend to DM a lot, the 3 core books made my list; after that it was monster manuals. When I looked at MM4 in the bookshelf, I realized that even my 3.0 ed MM2 was going to still be more useful than MM4; which was sort of gross to realize.

I mean, WoTC had somehow managed to make the only books that a DM creating a homebrew setting would want to buy into something useless.

Now that I use online replacements for many core elements; the splatbooks are useless to me, even now that they're supposedly cheaper for being obselete (pro tip: they' were obselete as soon as I found out what to look for when writing a make balanced character class; which is a far sight better than just shooting in the dark all the time).

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Alyss

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2009, 08:28:02 PM »
I've never had a problem with piracy of anything. I pirated every book on my laptop, and half my music collection.

CountArioch

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #127 on: July 17, 2009, 04:35:12 PM »
I believe American copywrite law is morally wrong, and adjust my actions as such.

I know that Americans believe that writing a book or song or cartoon character means you should get money for it the rest of your life and will crucify me for saying this.  I can't put into words how selfish and lazy that is.
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Hallack

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #128 on: July 17, 2009, 06:39:00 PM »
I believe American copywrite law is morally wrong, and adjust my actions as such.

I know that Americans believe that writing a book or song or cartoon character means you should get money for it the rest of your life and will crucify me for saying this.  I can't put into words how selfish and lazy that is.

Yep, copyrights and patents actually stifle innovation I think.

If you make something and do not want to share it with others... then keep it to yourself.

If you make something and want to build a business around it... have your shit together and do it right.  Being first to the market is a huge advantage  If you don't have your shit together (and even if you do) and someone else starts producing the service/product in a more efficient way, well, that's good for productivity and wealth overall.

Copyrights/patents just keep others from adding innovation to innovation. 

Just consider D&D books for example... how much less popular would D&D currently be if there were not many many out there making use of 'pirated' pdfs?

How many artists were helped by friends passing around burned CDs or even old recorded 8 tracks and cassettes back in the day? 

hehe, now I need to go back and at least browse the rest of this thread :P
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dither

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2009, 07:49:55 PM »
I tend to agree that individually, PC or video game, a tabletop game mechanic (or compilation of them), a novel, a comic book, or a song (or album) aren't worth what the companies that produce charge for them. I'm of the opinion that anyone who "creates" for a living -- be they a programmer or 3D modeler, level designer, comic illustrator, composer, musician, etc. should consider that their shit isn't golden.

How well does a band get by when they only produce one album a year? Every two years? Once a decade? How well should they get by? There's no reason to think that several hours/weeks/months of work upfront should generate thousands or millions of dollars. No matter how good it is. No matter how well it's promoted. It's crap supply created to stymie a fake demand.

You've got to give the WotC guys some credit for trying to stick to the book-a-month schedule, but 4e feels like they're trying to use the artwork to sell the books. How much is an art book worth? Is the art a worthy excuse for selling a crappy game? Why do they have to keep lying about how important playtesting and feedback are when they choose yes-men to test their products and ignore constructive criticism? How much is their shit actually worth?

Clones of mainstream video games come out in droves. They sport hackneyed versions of innovative mechanics, or third- or fourth-generation rip-offs of what were innovative mechanics. They typically have poorer graphics, less story, and less character. In all ways, a cheesy knock-off. In print, these are your cheap paperbacks. The print industry has been around for thousands of years and knows better (well, hopefully) by this point. Cheap knock-off video games are sold at $50-60 a pop ... the same price as the good games. Movies, music, video games ... whether it's brilliant or it's crap, the industry leaders think they can sell them all at the same price.

There's been an interesting trend of pushing towards independent publishers these last few years ... last several decades. A push towards listening to independently-produced music, independently grown vegetables, in-house writers/publishers, etc. Maybe there's always been this push towards finding the people who actually care about putting out a good product. People who make games BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO PLAY GAMES. People who PLAY MUSIC BECAUSE THEY LIKE MUSIC. PEOPLE WHO WRITE BOOKS BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO TELL STORIES.

It'd be nice if the lowest common denominator in consumers were smart enough to call out the fakes and the liars for what they are -- cheats and frauds. What can you do besides know and recognize these things for yourself and encourage the people around you to act in a similar manner? I don't know.

...

I think what makes me the saddest is when I see friends of mine who are so caught up in the consumer-cycle that they can't pay their bills, can't pay their rent -- they're too busy pouring cash into the World of WarCrack, too busy buying up Halo, Final Fantasy, and Grand Theft Auto clones, too busy buying Magic: the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh cards and Dungeons & Dragons books; buying American Idol, Hanna Montana, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer paraphernalia; going to see the new Indiana Jones movie, the Transformers movie, the GI Joe movie, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie, 300, Sin City, The Dark Knight, and Harry Potter ... dear lord ... buying any TV show or anime box sets...

I made a point to list a number of things there that I enjoy and buy into, myself. I didn't single any one fandom out that I can think of ... the sadness doesn't come from the medium or the object of affection itself ... it comes from the thoughtlessness of consuming whatever has the brand name slapped on it.

I might be preaching to the choir, in some cases but I have a feeling that whether this applies to you or not, you probably know people who are like this -- mindless consumers who are, if nothing else, contributing to the continual outpouring of crap products. Maybe it's better that they do -- the crappier the products on the shelves, the less likely I am to ever spend money on anything other than food, rent, and bills. Oh, and internet access. And porn.

</rant> But for how long?
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zook1shoe

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2011, 09:01:23 AM »
i admit to dl'ing any book i can from both 3e and 2e, but at one point in time i bought and owned a hard copy of 99% of the 3x books and still own hard copies of about 70% still, and prefer hard copies to read.

but i, like others here, got extremely frustrated when i spent $35 on a book that was COMPLETELY useless! Mysteries of the Moonsea, i'm looking at you.

plus all of the 2e stuff is out of print and  if i were to go on ebay, the Planescape stuff i am interested in is like $200!!! i can't afford that shit! but i want to at least read about those deities that were never udated for 3e, like most of the Sylvan and the Lycanthropy deities.

SorO_Lost

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2011, 09:15:34 PM »
I vote with my wallet.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
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[/spoiler]

zook1shoe

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2011, 09:47:48 PM »
Just consider D&D books for example... how much less popular would D&D currently be if there were not many many out there making use of 'pirated' pdfs?

think of what the price of the books would jump to, since they'd be in "higher" demand?

Sinfire Titan

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2011, 10:30:28 PM »
i admit to dl'ing any book i can from both 3e and 2e, but at one point in time i bought and owned a hard copy of 99% of the 3x books and still own hard copies of about 70% still, and prefer hard copies to read.

but i, like others here, got extremely frustrated when i spent $35 on a book that was COMPLETELY useless! Mysteries of the Moonsea, i'm looking at you.

plus all of the 2e stuff is out of print and  if i were to go on ebay, the Planescape stuff i am interested in is like $200!!! i can't afford that shit! but i want to at least read about those deities that were never udated for 3e, like most of the Sylvan and the Lycanthropy deities.

Two years ago, your post would have been relevant.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

zook1shoe

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2011, 01:05:00 AM »
thanks  :P

i didn't even realize the last post was so old

SorO_Lost

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #135 on: April 29, 2011, 06:05:26 AM »

I'm in space.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #136 on: April 29, 2011, 09:56:52 AM »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Twilightwyrm

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2011, 09:12:15 AM »
In this case, feel free to pirate to your heart's content. What we have here is a monopolistic organization, providing unacceptably bad levels of services that can clearly be better carried out by others on the internet, who regardless are not allowed to compete against them. The point of the law is justice, and in this case the law is not merely failing in this regard, but perpetuating unjust circumstances. Granted, this "injustice" pales in comparison to most of the other injustices that more readily deserve the term, but strictly speaking, this still isn't just. As such, whatever laws are governing this deserve neither respect nor enforcement, and since respect is the only part you can bring to the equation, you are therefore under no obligation to provide it. If and when actual competition and acceptable levels of service are introduced to the market, then the situation is no longer unjust, and you should probably respect the law. Until that time however...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 09:13:53 AM by Twilightwyrm »
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AriasDerros

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #138 on: August 25, 2011, 12:03:06 PM »
economic concept. "A product or service possess a True Market Value equal to what the median individual in the product or services target market is willing to assign to it, those who wish to distribute their product/service must adjust their costs to account for the differential between the True Market Value and their ability to continue to provide the product/service. Failure to do this will force the target consumer to seek out an alternate provider. This is what is meant by the concept of 'supply and demand.'"

In lay terms, the companies are making their products way to expensive, as has been stated many times in this thread already. Even with the fact that the company must maintain a profit margin in order to stay in business, they are MASSIVELY overcharging for just the core books alone. At the very least, this is true if you bear in mind what most RPG players have as disposable income.

In actuality, their prices are forcing WoTC out of business. This is for two reasons. One) in order to get the most of your D&D experience, you are going to want multiple books, but you can't afford more than the ones you NEED, thus you find "free providers" ie. you pirate books to maintain the hobby, and then you will likely continue to pirate even books you wouldn't have had you never been forced to. Two) by making it so that someone who has only been roughly introduced to the game, and has obtained a passing interest in it, then looks at the price of the books and is forced to say "**** this" WoTC then propagates the slow death of their own game by limiting their future market.

...... So to kill the over-syllabic, heavy-worded explanation, if you are forced to pirate the books, because you can't afford to maintain the hobby without pirating the books, then the companies that write, translate or otherwise provide the books are charging to much, then you are justified, and the company(ies) responsible have only themselves to blame.

Lawyered.

zugschef

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Re: So, about book piracy.
« Reply #139 on: August 25, 2011, 01:23:13 PM »
just a random thought... apart from the fact that the term "piracy" is utter bullshit when referring to making illegal copies, it's really hilarious that sometimes the copies provide more value than the original. for example: in the case of computer software, the cracked versions don't need the cd/dvd in your drive, or ignore the "must be online" requirement.