Author Topic: Psionics are hard...  (Read 3802 times)

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Tonymitsu

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Psionics are hard...
« on: February 10, 2010, 11:50:23 PM »
I'm trying to design this encounter for an ECL 17 party of four (two melee glass cannons, one tank, and one waste of space).  At this point the encounter is comprised of a psychic vampire (Libris Mortis) and two or three of his spawn (at least one psychic warrior and one wilder).  The basic gist of the encounter is ridiculous amounts of psionic self-healing.  Ive never run high-level psionics before and I just have no idea the best way to accomplish these things.

I'm basing the big guy on one of Phaedrus's builds here.

Here's a repost for convenience sake:
Note that the only difference between a normal vampire psychic vampire is he loses the level drain slam and gains a wisdom drain slam and a 10 foot Wisdom drain aura (only affects living things).

Quote
Conrad Bains, Death's Diplomat
Human Vampire Telepath6
CR 8 Undead (Augmented Humanoid)

Stats:
Str 20 (14+6) 24 buffed
Dex 17 (13+4)
Con - (was 8 )
Int 18 (15+2+1)
Wis 12 (10+2)
Cha 16 (12+4)

Hit Points: 6d12+12 (51 avg, 81 with vigor, half damage goes to spawn via Share Pain)
(He was "turned" in a Desecrated shrine. Give all his spawn 8 more hit points also. If the heroes make it to his coffin, it will be in the desecrated shrine, giving all undead +2 to hit, damage, and saves, and inflicting a -6 penalty to Turn Undead checks. He should be allied with some evil church or cleric to explain this, if you want. Or give the area a permanent Desecrate effect.)

Initiative: +7
Saves: F+3, R+8, W+7
Attack: +13 Slam (1d6+10 + Energy Drain)(+2d6 Psionic Fist, and he can refocus every round if he doesn't have to move)
AC:31 fully buffed +concealment (10+7armor+4shield+7natural+3dex), Touch 13, Flatfooted 28 (-4 w/Karmic Strike)

Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes (all bonus up to here), Combat Expertise (1st), Karmic Strike (Human), Psionic Meditation (Egoist1), Overchannel (3), Psionic Fist (Ego5), (6) Expanded Knowledge: Animal Affinity
Powers: (1st-5) Force Screen, Vigor, Precognition: Offensive, Entangling Ectoplasm, Inertial Armor (2nd-4) Concealing Amorpha, Energy Adaptation, Share Pain, Read Thoughts, Animal Affinity (3rd-2) Empathic Transfer: Hostile, Dispel Psionics
Power Points: 47
Skills: Bluff +20(9), Diplomacy +16(9), Gather Information +12(9), Sense Motive +18(9), Concentration +9(9), Intimidate +9(4cc), Hide +15(4cc), Spot +10 (1cc), Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Search +12
(includes +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. He's also used a stone of Psychic Reformation after becoming a vampire to take advantage of his enhanced form's bonuses)

Special Attacks: Blood drain, domination (DC 16, range 30 ft, lasts 6 days), energy drain, create spawn, children of the night
Special Qualities: +4 turn resistance, damage reduction 10/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 5, alternate form, gaseous form, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, undead traits

Equipment: Cloak of Resistance +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Hat of Disguise, Gloves of Object Read. (A bit below standard wealth I think)
Buffs: (Au=Augmented, OC=Overchanneled, Cost, duration) Vigor (Au 6, 6min), Force Screen (1, 6min), Share Pain (3, 6hrs), Animal Affinity (3, 6min), Precogn:Off (Au&OC 7, 7min), Concealing Amorpha (3, 6min), Inertial Armor (Au&OC, 7hrs), Energy Adaptation (3, 60min) Total 33 PP.

The ultimate goal is a telepath with a Life-driking Necklace of Natural Attacks (yeah it's cheap I know), ridiculous AC, that hits once or twice a round and repeatedly level drains his attackers with Karmic Strike, while reducing damage via Shared Pain (with the psychic warrior, or the wilder, or both, can you have more than one shared pain manifested?) and healing himself via a Schismed brain with Empathic Hostile Transfer.  The biggest problem I'm having is the group will be protected by a Magic Circle against Evil until I knock the waste of space unconscious so most of the best [Compulsion] and [Charm] powers won't do any good.  I'm having trouble finding good power combos (like Death Urge/Deja Vu)
I'm also planning on Detect Hostile Intent combined with Sense Danger (MoE) and Synchronicity, to manifest Temporal Acceleration in case he loses initiative and really needs to go first for some reason, or manifest something like Timeless Body if he's about to be killed.


For the psychic warrior, the general plan at the moment is to manifest claws of the vampire with an augmented Expansion along with Reach to either grapple the waste of space or beat on people running around him, mostly for HP damage.  I'm on the fence as to whether to use Rapidstrike or not (it's not a completely optimized party and I don't want to outright kill them, just make it challenging).  He'll also use Ubiquitous Vision to prevent the two glass cannons from flanking him for sneak attack.
I realize claws would probably be worse than a weapon if I don't use Rapidstrike, but I'm trying to keep the vampires unarmed so they get their Wisdom drains in there.  I'm also at a loss of the best way to make use of him.

The wilder will pretty much serve as the healer.  Of course when I say healing, I mean via things like a Sculpted Fiendish Conduit and the various Stygian stuff in XPH.
For her defenses I pretty much wanted to keep her hidden somehow, and when she is discovered have the psionic equivalents of Blink, Displacement, and Mirror Image (if they exist) protecting her.  It's a fully transparent game so maybe I can get away with saying she researched them?
The other plan I had for her was Zone of Alertness, so the group can share the benefit from the BBEG's Detect Hostile Intent, and generally be another sponge to soak HP damage.  Or perhaps deliver touch powers along with her Wisdom drain.
Again, biggest problem is I've never played a wilder so I have no idea what I'm doing.


Any suggestions?  Comments?

Anklebite

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 11:59:13 PM »
one question, why do you focus fire so much on the waste of space? additionally, shutting down all the party's fun stuff is gonna piss the players off.


now that that's out of the way, lets get to the playerganking. you might want to use a power other than hostile transfer for healing, as I'm pretty sure it allows a save.  a will save, in fact.  also, coat the floor in black sand. lots and lots of black sand.  put it in the BBEG's boots and underwear. douse it in his hair. in fact, have a permanent wind effect going, with a mini black sandstorm. keep in mind that the wilder can hide all traces that she is manifesting, so  you can have her "cowering in fear in a corner". you players will probably leave her alone while she screws them over.
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 12:14:58 AM »
one question, why do you focus fire so much on the waste of space? additionally, shutting down all the party's fun stuff is gonna piss the players off.

It's an astral deva using savage species progression.
he projects an aura out to 30 feet that gives allies a +4 Deflection vs Evil and and protects them via Magic Circle against Evil (so no mind games).
He has ridiculous AC and DR 10/evil, but really doesn't do much beyond that.

And I don't look at it as taking away all their toys.  They just have to think.

They're free to try and burst the big guy, but he'll split the damage.
They can also try and burst the wilder down too.
The tank can deal his fair share of damage too in addition to having a 15 foot reach.

[/quote]
now that that's out of the way, lets get to the playerganking. you might want to use a power other than hostile transfer for healing, as I'm pretty sure it allows a save.  a will save, in fact.  also, coat the floor in black sand. lots and lots of black sand.  put it in the BBEG's boots and underwear. douse it in his hair. in fact, have a permanent wind effect going, with a mini black sandstorm. keep in mind that the wilder can hide all traces that she is manifesting, so  you can have her "cowering in fear in a corner". you players will probably leave her alone while she screws them over.
[/quote]

EHT isn't the only thing he'll have to heal.  I chose it cause it's one more thing to the pile of Fast Healing 5 for being a vampire, the temp HP he can get from his slam attack and Vigor, and the negative energy being thrown at him by the wilder.
Never would of thought to have her acting like a hostage, won't that make it tough to pre-buff her?  Another thing I just remembered is that one of the glass cannons has a Goggles of True Seeing.

dark_samuari

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 12:21:59 AM »
If you really want to push the whole vampire angle, if you're main guy attains ten levels than he can adopt the vampire lord template for free (he just gains +2 to his CR).

Tonymitsu

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 12:40:34 AM »
If you really want to push the whole vampire angle, if you're main guy attains ten levels than he can adopt the vampire lord template for free (he just gains +2 to his CR).

The link says to up the CR by three  =\

Which would put him at a total of CR +5
...and even if he was only level 12 that template would be way too powerful for them.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 12:51:38 AM »
True Seeing doesn't do anything vs. mundane disguises, and vampires look like humans, anyway. Unless he is a cleric and gets the whole "aura" thing from it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tonymitsu

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 12:59:38 AM »
True Seeing doesn't do anything vs. mundane disguises, and vampires look like humans, anyway. Unless he is a cleric and gets the whole "aura" thing from it.

/facedesk   :banghead

Astral deva has detect evil at will, too.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2010, 01:07:24 AM »
True Seeing doesn't do anything vs. mundane disguises, and vampires look like humans, anyway. Unless he is a cleric and gets the whole "aura" thing from it.

/facedesk   :banghead

Astral deva has detect evil at will, too.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm

Have her chained to a wall. It will make it more believable, but do nothing to dampen her abilities. Of course, have the chains be easily escapable if she chooses to.  :D

And these guys are high enough level that they could potentially have Mind Blank on them from an item or power.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Anklebite

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 02:18:17 AM »
ha!

deva: "I detect evil."

you: "well congratulations, you detect evil in the DESECRATED AREA. there is necromantic effects and black sand everywhere, along with tons of profane items and generally evil shit.  there is also a ravaged looking woman chained to the wall over there with glimmering metal chains that make the entire scene look evil. oh, and there seems to be a friggin VAMPIRE. so, long story short, you do indeed detect evil."
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 05:29:47 AM »
Quote
"well congratulations, you detect evil in the DESECRATED AREA. there is necromantic effects and black sand everywhere, along with tons of profane items and generally evil shit.  there is also a ravaged looking woman chained to the wall over there with glimmering metal chains that make the entire scene look evil. oh, and there seems to be a friggin VAMPIRE. so, long story short, you do indeed detect evil."
lolz... too good

all right, so let's see

Lophar:
Human Psychic Vampire Telepath 17 (CR 19)

Human:  Combat Expertise
1st:  Dodge
Telepath 1:  Psionic Meditation
3rd:  Overchannel
Telepath 5:  Psionic Fist
6th:  Expanded Knowledge
9th:   Karmic Strike
Telepath 10th:   Greater Psionic Fist
12th:  Sidestep Charge
15:  Quicken Power
Telepath 15:  Unavoidable Strike


Conrad
Human psychic vampire Psychic Warrior 15 (CR 17)

Human:  Combat Expertise
1st:  Dodge
PsyWar 1:  Mobility
Psywar 2:  Speed of Thought
3rd:  Improved Natural Attack
Psywar 5:  Overchannel
6th:  Psionic Meditation
Psywar 8:  Power Attack
9th:  Aligned Strike
Psywar 11:  
12th:  Improved Bull Rush
Psywar 14:  Leap Attack
15th:  Shock Trooper


Elyssa
Human psychic vampire Wilder 15 (CR 17)

Human:  
1st:  Extend Power
3rd:  Chain Power
6th:  Link Power
9th:  Quicken Power  
12th:  Twin Power
15th:  Expand Knowledge: <something useful>


...more or less, something like that?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 05:35:09 AM by Tonymitsu »

dark_samuari

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2010, 05:43:47 AM »
I'd possibly want to focus on some battlefield control as vampire's aren't really designed for melee/tanking, so creating a nightmarish environment for the fight to take place can not only make this a much more challenging encounter but perhaps a more memorable one.

TT30

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 08:33:50 AM »
Wilder have lot of metapsionic feats. They all consume psionic focus when used so she too should have psionic meditation feat so she could focus as move action instead of full round action. Or you must use temporary acceleration to focus but that would be waste. Many metapsionic feats are waste without fast refocus.
 
Best way to get lot of hitpoints with psionic is to use share pain and shared vigor with psicrystal. Additional bonus is that level 15 you can channel powers trough psicrystal so psicrystal is originator of power so when that wall chained wilder uses his powers they come trough psicrystal witch can be on shoulder of that telepath.

Healing others probably won't work. Because everybody should have temporary hitpoints from vigor and manifest it again immeditly when run out of temporary hitpoints. Schims is perfect way to do it and without schism anticipatory strike can help too, manifest vigor shared with psicrystal+tumble or dimensional door out of melee range with move action. Without temporary hitpoins they would fall practically instantly agains any semi optimized melee group and 2 classcannons + tank is probably quite lot of melee power.

If you are concernet about losing iniative you can cast contigency,psionic->temporal acceleration. level 17+1overchannel...

Possible problem is that level 17 vampire telepath is alone possible TPK against party without full casters(=certain TPK if played right). With right powers it will totally rape melee party. Temporary acceleration, anticipatory strike, schism, dimensional door to move away with move action->keep distance.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 08:47:47 AM by TT30 »

Hijax

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2010, 03:22:49 PM »
also, coat the floor in black sand. lots and lots of black sand.  put it in the BBEG's boots and underwear. douse it in his hair. in fact, have a permanent wind effect going, with a mini black sandstorm.

+1.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2010, 03:30:37 PM »
Best way to get lot of hitpoints with psionic is to use share pain and shared vigor with psicrystal.
The original I wrote up used Share Pain on his vampire spawn, saving him a feat on the psicrystal. I also planned on them (he and his spawn) using skirmish tactics. They'd pop in, hit the party a few times, and then go gaseous and into a crack in the wall to let their fast healing kick in. They are a LOT tougher like this than they are in a straight-up fight (and why would they want to stand there in a straight-up fight, anyway?).

This would wear down the party's resources and make them paranoid. Then when he felt like they were "ready", he'd fully buff and go in to finish them off.

During the initial skirmish raids, and the final fight, he'd try to use Dominate as best he could, also.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2010, 04:02:10 PM »
One thing to keep in mind, a well made and executed plan (as PhaedrusXY describes) is a good way to a TPK. Make sure that if your players are supposed to win that the bad guys don't have too good a plan, or they make a mistake. Depending on how well your PCs works together and how quickly they can come up with a counter plan any well organized group with some ability could kill them.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2010, 04:31:33 PM »
One thing to keep in mind, a well made and executed plan (as PhaedrusXY describes) is a good way to a TPK. Make sure that if your players are supposed to win that the bad guys don't have too good a plan, or they make a mistake. Depending on how well your PCs works together and how quickly they can come up with a counter plan any well organized group with some ability could kill them.
I usually expect my PCs to know how to optimize and make tactical decisions in battles. If I were DMing for a bunch of n00bs, or just people with no grasp of optimization or tactics, I'd probably just use stock monster manual creatures and not bother making up complicated and powerful NPCs... but I'd probably get bored fast. :P I like the combat mini-game in D&D. I think all optimizers do.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2010, 04:37:21 PM »
I agree but after wiping 3 different groups with only 1 or 2 enemies due to superior tactics. I learned to keep it simple for their sake. Even then just last week a single beholder almost took out a 6 man party with hit and run tactics.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »
I agree but after wiping 3 different groups with only 1 or 2 enemies due to superior tactics. I learned to keep it simple for their sake. Even then just last week a single beholder almost took out a 6 man party with hit and run tactics.
Retreating is also a tactic. Some PCs find it a hard one to appreciate, though.  :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Psionics are hard...
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2010, 05:08:43 PM »
One thing to keep in mind, a well made and executed plan (as PhaedrusXY describes) is a good way to a TPK. Make sure that if your players are supposed to win that the bad guys don't have too good a plan, or they make a mistake. Depending on how well your PCs works together and how quickly they can come up with a counter plan any well organized group with some ability could kill them.
I usually expect my PCs to know how to optimize and make tactical decisions in battles. If I were DMing for a bunch of n00bs, or just people with no grasp of optimization or tactics, I'd probably just use stock monster manual creatures and not bother making up complicated and powerful NPCs... but I'd probably get bored fast. :P I like the combat mini-game in D&D. I think all optimizers do.
I think this is all fair.  And, as both a player and DM I've found it really enjoyable.  Recently the DM in our Planescape game kitted out a marilith w/ feats and gear and some extra HD and the battle was tremendously memorable.  He also gave her some "escape hatches" in the form of gear to the various conditions we could inflict on her.  I didn't mind that at all -- she was the BBEG, the MIC is fair game for everybody, and when we won we benefited from it. 

The only danger I think is to remember that the DM knows a lot about the characters' powers.  So, I think it's find to make a cracked out NPC/BBEG, I just am always wary of making one that is really good versus a particular set of abilities that your players might indulge in.  I think some, relatively general, stuff is perfectly ok.  E.g., a BBEG who crushes melee combatants or who can recover from various conditions like stun or who can manage battlefield control.