Author Topic: Discussion of Machiaveli saying  (Read 1516 times)

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Alastar

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Discussion of Machiaveli saying
« on: February 08, 2010, 04:50:40 AM »
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To reconstitue political life in a state presupposes a good man, whereas to have recourse to violence in order to make oneself prince in a republic supposes a bad man.  Hence very rarely will there be found a good man ready to use bad methods in order to make himself prince, tough with a good end in view.

Nor will any reasonable man blame him for taking any action, however extraordinary, which may be of service in the organizing of a kingdom or the constituting of a republic.  It is a sound maxim that reprehensible actions may be justified by their effects, and that when the effect is good, it always justifies the action.  For it is the man who uses violence to spoil things, not the man who uses it to mend tehm, that is blameworthy.

A prince should therefore disregard the reproach of being thought cruel where it enables him to keep his subjects united and loyal.  For he who quells disorder by a very few signal examples will in the end be more merciful than he who from great leniency permits things to take their course and so result in chaos and bloodshed; for these hurt the whole state, whereas the severities of the Prince injure individuals only.

It is essential therefore, for a Prince who desires to maintain his position, to have learned how to be other than good, and to use or not use his goodness as necessity requires.

''Everyone sees what you seem to be, but few know what you are.''

Niccolo Machiavelli: The prince

I find myself agreeing with this sentence, and would be prepared to debate it, would any of you comment on it?

veekie

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Re: Discussion of Machiaveli saying
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 06:33:21 AM »
Well, it is theoretically sound, but realistically, it is difficult to identify a 'good man', particularly one who uses underhanded methods for good ends, while  at the same time, identifying the outcome of a given action can be chancy at best, with the actual end reflecting the interplay of many uncontrolled forces, some actively acting to manipulate consequences.

Now, if there was some way of identifying a person suitable to be trusted without having to rely on his actions...and for said person to reliably judge the potential outcomes, short and long term, of his decisions...
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Re: Discussion of Machiaveli saying
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 09:28:39 PM »
It is also worth noting that Machiavelli was a supporter of the realist theory. Well, it did not have that name back then, but still. Whether or not the ideas of the realist theory are still valid is not certain, although I tend to lean against them rather strongly.

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Re: Discussion of Machiaveli saying
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 02:10:46 AM »
Well, with that closing sentence, I totally agree. Few do.

As for that whole thing; it's WAY too dodgy a subject for me to make any concrete statements about it. Evil for the greater Good situations are ALWAYS situational, but I do believe that it's wrong to discard them all uniformly.

As for Machiavelli in general: fun thing about him is the degree to which he's a moralist. I've always been amused by how much "Machiavellian" is used to indicate complete amorality and subservience to a cold, logical plan of some sort, because Machiavelli actually was pretty heavy on morality. It's just a different kind of morality. Anyways, that's a bit of a tangent.
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