UA Bloodline question

[reddir]

I have a question that seems to piss off anyone I discuss it with....but I have to know!

1)Do the UA-style Bloodlines count toward ECL?

2)If so, why? Please lay out the reasoning for me using RAW, or even RAI.


Some questions which I feel bear on this issue:

a) Are Character Level and ECL differentiated anywhere?

b) Is there any explicit formula that ECL = HD + LA + Bloodline Levels? Or any clear unambiguous statement that Bloodline Levels count toward ECL?


Thanks for you time.

[reddir]

www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossa...
:"effective character level
...A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment..."

Clearly they are different.

So, Bloodlines Levels are plainly stated to not change Character Level. Do they change ECL? This seems to depend on whether the definition indicates:
HD (including class levels) = HD, including HD from class levels
-or-
HD (including class levels) = HD, including any class levels that may not have HD

Are there any other examples of levels with no HD which we can reference?

[awaken DM golem]

Here's the SRD entry of that part of UA:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

It is complicated, but the Bloodline level counts as a real character level.
You get the whole bloodline stuff instead of the 1 or more class level.
It's a reasonable trade.

The key part that produces CO-board arguments is:
Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.

The example is a Monk 3 / Sorc 3 / Bloodline 2 = 8 levels. Any racial HD or racial LAs would then count on top of it.
So you are a 3rd level monk but with 5th level monk abilities AND a 3rd level sorc with 5th level sorc abilities.
But which abilities are jacked up to the 5th level by the 2 bloodline levels ??

So there are lots of ways to go with this, and it's more what you and your DM work out together.
The CO-board still has discussions about it, so absolute final details would depend on who answers yer call and who answers back with other info.

EDIT - Here's the handbook on this site:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6804.0

[reddir]

It is complicated, but the Bloodline level counts as a real character level.

Um, from the entry you linked, the Bloodline Levels section, the last line of the first paragraph explicitly says no:

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

The key part that produces CO-board arguments is:
...The example is a Monk 3 / Sorc 3 / Bloodline 2 = 8 levels. Any racial HD or racial LAs would then count on top of it.

There is no entry anywhere that says a Monk 3 / Sorc 3 with 2 Bloodline levels is considered to have 8 levels. If there were, I wouldn't have asked my question.

So you are a 3rd level monk but with 5th level monk abilities AND a 3rd level sorc with 5th level sorc abilities.
But which abilities are jacked up to the 5th level by the 2 bloodline levels ??

Iisn't it fairly clear what abilities are improved? Any ability that is calculated from class level; not abilities that are granted at a new class level. Its not a real class level with new abilities, just an improvement to what actual class levels have already granted.

EDIT - Here's the handbook on this site:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6804.0

Saw that, its pretty sparse. I first asked my question there, but from the response I got it seems the OP had lost interest.


EDIT: Sometimes I can come across as harsh. Please do not think I am flaming you. I am just trying to develop a clear understanding of how Bloodlines work based on the rules given. I have noticed that different people/groups play D&D differntly, including at different levels of power. What is typical play for one group might be considered underpowered or overpowered by other groups. My feeling is that it is best to start with a clear understanding of the rules as they are given, and only then tweak them to fit our particular play-style, or even the particular campaign/adventure we will be playing.

[kurashu]

It is complicated, but the Bloodline level counts as a real character level.

Um, from the entry you linked, the Bloodline Levels section, the last line of the first paragraph explicitly says no:

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

Let's take a look at the whole paragraph then.

Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

I think it's pretty clear that BL3 counts as three character levels. If they weren't levels, they wouldn't be called levels.

[reddir]

I think it's pretty clear that BL3 counts as three character levels. If they weren't levels, they wouldn't be called levels.

So, taking the entire paragraph as a whole, Bloodline levels are class levels that don't count as character levels?


EDIT: I think the last line is pretty explicit. I'm not sure how anyone can read it any other way. My question above is my best interpretation of all the level/class info in that paragraph.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The last line says that they increase a character's level in a different way than normal levels do.  For example, they do not provide hit dice. 

Not that they do not increase the character's level at all.

[reddir]

...Not that they do not increase the character's level at all.

I have to admit that there is nothing in the text that absolutely contradicts your second statement. So thank you for giving me what I asked for, a way to read the text that leaves the door open to raise ECL

Your first statement, however, is not correct. There is actually nothing at all in the text that says bloodline levels raise character levels. In fact, the only statement that mentions character levels says bloodline levels do not raise it "the way a normal class level does..." Given that there is no other example (afaik) of raising ECL other than HD and LA, and there is nothing in the text which actually says bloodline levels raise ECL, I can see no reason for your leap of logic.

I think assuming rules that are not actually given, and reading in exceptions that are not actually stated can lead one down very troublesome roads, especially with D&D rules.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I think it's worse to assume that a "class level" doesn't increase ECL, without any evidence given to the contrary.

[reddir]

Without any evidence?

I think the line which I have been repeatedly quoting is quite significant evidence.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I believe the default assumption is that class levels increase character level.  Otherwise savage progressions would be brokenness cubed.  The only line you have to support is one that's ambiguous, results in bloodlines being all-but completely free (seriously, worse than LA buyoff completely free", and ends up violating the unwritten skill-points have to be limited by ECL+3 rule (which is otherwise only broken by a two feat combo for a single skill by a single point which explicitly lets you do that).

 I believe the "they don't count the same way, but receive certain benefits." refers to the whole

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

that's certainly a big difference.  In particular, the multiclassing guideline indicates that they should count towards normal class levels for ECL.

[awaken DM golem]

Bloodline Levels

Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).
Table: Bloodline Levels Bloodline Level    Bloodline Strength
Minor    Intermediate    Major
1st    12th    6th    3rd
2nd    n/a    12th    6th
3rd    n/a    n/a    12th

Bolding is mine.
The funny thing about levels, is WotC was a little funny about that word. They might be trying to intentionally confuse you.
They tell you it is a class level.
It is a "class level"
They tell you when you have to take it, by which level.
Level.
Yep, we know level is confusing because they use level to refer to so many things. And then they interchange this level with that level.
But a "class level" is a "class level".
And that is the right answer.
That is how it has been used historically, on both CO-boards and regular ones.

A build could be:
Fighter 2
Major Bloodline 1
Fighter +2
Major Bloodline +1
Fighter +5
Major Bloodline +1

[The_Mad_Linguist]

There's also the weirdness that ECL != Character level.

I'm perfectly fine with it counting towards ECL, and not counting towards character level.

Like, for example, if you have an ability with DC = 10+Character level, and you're a bloodline3/sorcerer17, you only get DC 27 out of it.  But if you use it to defeat an encounter, you get XP as a level 20 character.

[kurashu]

Except Bloodlines also increase effects related to class levels. So that example DC would actually be 30.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

No, it wouldn't.

Because class level != character level.

[kurashu]

It's a level though. Not part of a level adjustment, though it kind of acts like one (no HD, skill points, et cetera). So, it would still count. The DC would still be 30.

[reddir]

I have learned a lot from this thread. From reading the responses here and elsewhere, I believe I have a better appreciation of the various things I have heard in discussions on UA-style Bloodlines.

This thread, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140156 , is a fairly comprehensive gathering of views on the issue of Bloodlines.

Some points:
1) Anyone who believes an xp cost in return for power/ability will dislike LA-buyoff and Bloodlines. Spells with an xp cost and player-made magic items (which require xp) seem to be more generally accepted due to the higher cost/benefit ratio.
(This is a perfectly valid philosophy which I find myself agreeing with more and more, in the interest of maintaining game balance.)

2) For various reasons (other than point #1), Bloodlines seem (and are) broken if implemented strictly by RAW.

3) Much of what people say re: Bloodlines stems from an instinctive reaction to correct point #2. I truly appreciate their efforts to make something with such significant rp-potential as a Bloodline usable in-game without breaking a campaign.

Thank you,
reddir

EDIT - point #1 should read: "Anyone who believes an xp cost in return for power/ability is unbalanced will dislike..."

[Bauglir]

1) Anyone who believes an xp cost in return for power/ability will dislike LA-buyoff and Bloodlines. Spells with an xp cost and player-made magic items (which require xp) seem to be more generally accepted due to the higher cost/benefit ratio.
(This is a perfectly valid philosophy which I find myself agreeing with more and more, in the interest of maintaining game balance.)

I'm derailing a bit, but I could argue fairly convincingly for the opposite view; that XP is not a fair cost for an increase in power or ability. This is because A) the drawback isn't immediate (you can't spend enough XP to lose a level in most cases, so you lose nothing in the very short term) and B) the drawback isn't permanent (you gain XP faster whenever you're actually paying for your power boost, which is whenever you're behind a level). This means there's a very specific window of when it's NOT a good idea to spend XP for more power; usually, when the power boost is only temporary (such as some spells with an XP component), and when your campaign is likely to run for only a few levels (and, incidentally, if you don't get XP in big chunks; if your DM tends to throw a single huge encounter a day at you, you're likely to consistently jump past level breaks along with your party, despite trailing a few hundred to a few thousand points). Otherwise, you get power now for a cost you only MIGHT pay later, and which eventually balances out to no cost at all (while you still might have the power).

Anyways, bloodlines are extremely confusing, and many attributes are highly arguable (especially because a lot of very important terms are either not defined anywhere, or only defined in extremely obscure places). For instance, SOME prestige classes which advance casting get their benefit doubled from bloodline levels, but some don't. You need to check the Spellcasting ability to see if it says something like, "At each level of this class..." or if it says, "At levels X, Y, and Z...". The first case gets awesomesauce, the second gets nothing. Note that ACTUAL spellcasting classes get no benefit, because they all gain their spells AT specific levels, rather than from a formula BASED on their level.

[reddir]

Bauglir,

re: xp cost, check my edit to my last post. I left out a few words from my point #1.

re: Bloodlines, I think it is possible to work through the definitions and which abilities for which classes are advanced by them. The main issue is that if implemented as written, they can be unbalanced. Here is a thread that attempts to provide a balanced implementation of Bloodlines.