Author Topic: Optimizing a Scout  (Read 10455 times)

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ksbsnowowl

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Optimizing a Scout
« on: February 07, 2010, 04:16:44 PM »
So I've just started playing with a new group that I really like, and we are currently 0 level (bonus Commoner 1 HD).  Due to the nature of the campaign, "wilderness" types will probably be somewhat advantageous.  I've decided to go for a Scout base, but haven't decided much beyond that.  Non-core books are allowed, though it doesn't seem as though the group members have a very wide selection amongst themselves.  Very specifically, the DM is going to be using Heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, BoVD, and BoED.  The other party members are going to be a (gnome?) Druid, a half-elf sorcerer, and some type of warrior character (the player was sick at character creation, but he doesn't want to be a spellcaster).

We have seen some undead already, but the DM said most of the troubles of the world aren't monster related; rather, they are gangs of humanoid thugs, and the like.

I've thought about possibly going for Swift Hunter eventually, but my guess is the DM has never heard of it, so I don't know how receptive he'll be toward the power of that feat.  I could certainly go this route at a moment's notice later on, but for right now I'd like to work on optimizing the character with respect to skirmish and skills/feats, as those will be present regardless of if I have Ranger levels later on or not.

Right now we are all Commoner 1, which in effect gives us a bonus HD-worth of HP's, and a few bonus skill points.  We don't get our feats until 1st level.

I'm a Human with stats of Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 12 (I rolled pretty well  :D).  I put my 0-level skill points into Listen and Spot.

I think I'm going to go for a melee skirmisher.  My hope is to eventually take a level of Barbarian and get the pounce alternate feature from Complete Champion, along with the Fleet of Foot feat from Complete Warrior (so I can turn while charging).  If I do go for Swift Hunter, I'll go with the Two-Weapon Fighting weapon style.  I might also stick two levels of Highland Stalker in somewhere, so I would end up with Skirmish +6d6/+4 AC.

Question:  Does the Scout's Flawless Stride allow him to charge when things might otherwise prevent him?  Are there terrain obstacles that he can move through that might still prevent him from charging?  Other than moving around creatures or trees, ect, would Fleet of Foot provide any benefit in regards to charging for a scout, or does Flawless Stride remove most such hinderances?

However, doing a full reread of the Scout class, it is a rather decent class in its own right.  I'm tempted to play a straight Scout (possibly with 1 level of Barb for pounce), but I've never seen a scout in play in a real game, so advice and suggestions about their worth in an actual game would be much appreciated.  I read the Scout Handbook over at the WotC boards, but there is just so much info to take in and digest for a class I've never seen in play, that I'm just sort of rambling out ideas.

How good is Spring Attack on a Scout?  Is it worth the feat investment?  Is Expeditious Dodge the better way to go?

Anyway, a rough idea of the skills and feats I plan to take:

Skills (11 skill points per level):  Balance 5, Jump 5, max Listen, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Search, Disable Device, Survival, and then probably Sense Motive or Escape Artist.

Human: ?Dodge?
1: ?Mobility?
3: Weapon Finesse
Scout 4: Track? or Swift Hunter?
6: Spring Attack?
Scout 8: Spring Attack? (to save my 6th level slot for other options)


A few other feats I came across in the Miniature's Handbook that might be good for a Scout:

Hurling Charge:  Make both a thrown weapon attack, and a quick-drawn melee weapon attack as part of a charge.  It doesn't specify when during the charge you make the thrown weapon attack, so you could do it after having moved 10 feet.

Sidestep:  Make a 5-ft step after an attack of opportunity.

Would this allow you to then take a 5-ft step at the start of your turn, and then count as having moved 10 feet to activate skirmish?  This would work well with a Longspear.  Skirmish says it activates during any round in which the scout has moved at least 10 feet.  The damage is restrained to only during the scout's turn, but the movement is during "the round," not the scout's turn, and a round could be measured from the end of the scout's actions to the end of the scouts actions on her next turn, could it not?

Thoughts?  Ideas? Critiques?  As I said, this is my first practical take at a scout, so I'm a bit lost as to how best to approach this from a combat/feat standpoint.


Edit:  I'm starting to like the idea of Hurling Charge more and more, though the logistics of needing the throwing weapon in your hand at the start of your turn would preclude longspears, and thus reach weapons, making Sidestep nigh worthless.

I can pick up Quick Draw (req for Hurling Charge) from my 8th level Scout feat, and then get Hurling Charge with my 9th level feat slot.  So, I'm probably looking at the following for my feats:

Human: Expeditious Dodge
1: Mobility
3: Weapon Finesse
Scout 4: Quick Draw
6: Improved Skirmish
Scout 8: Spring Attack
9: Hurling Charge

Sadly, I don't yet qualify for Spring Attack at Scout 4, so I suppose I'll move Quick Draw up there.

I guess I'll be going more for the mobile attacker roll with this set-up, but it will be interesting to see it in action.  If undead do become an issue, I'll throw in a level of Ranger, and take Swift Hunter after getting the OK from my DM.  Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 05:08:05 PM by ksbsnowowl »
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 06:08:28 PM »
Probably won't be of much help but...

Something to be aware of with Skirmish is that it's precision damage like Sneak Attack so some of the same rules apply, specifically:

You don't get it unless you are within 30 feet.  So you can't throw until you are within 30 feet of your target.  Hurling Charge also says that you only get to make one melee attack after your throw, even if you normally get more attacks on a charge.  This is bad, as a typical melee skirmish build with full two-weapon fighting and pouncing gets seven attacks on a charge, and even a Rapid Blitz build would get three.

In addition, you don't get skirmish on things that are immune to critical hits, like undead, but depending on how much you are fighting those things this may or may not be of much concern to you.  Since I notice the DM has two undead heavy books in his list, the Swift Hunter feat can help offset this by taking a level in Ranger and taking Undead as one of your favored enemies (Swift Hunter lets you apply skirmish damage to favored enemies even if they are normally immune to it).  Even better, since Book of Exalted Deeds is in, getting two levels in Stalker of Kharash from that book will get you Favored Enemy: evil, which when combined with Swift Hunter gets you skirmish against undead (all undead are evil) and probably most of the things you'll encounter.

By RAW, any movement at all on the scout's part, so long as it is 10 feet from where he started his round, is enough to activate skirmish (remember that improved skirmish takes 20 feet).  Wizards of the Coast has ruled that being mounted doesn't count (because the scout isn't the one moving), nor does teleporting (probably more a balance thing, but it never hurts to ask your DM for leeway on this one since, IMO, it fits in the spirit of skirmish).  Since Expeditious Dodge needs 40 feet, you are probably much better off doing the moving yourself on your round, than trying to find some way to do it when it's not your round.

Straight scout has it's benefits, depending on the nature of the campaign.  The biggest one is that all of it's class abilities are extraordinary, so they function even when the magic gets turned off, in which case the standout is the level 18 permanent Freedom of Movement.  Anything that stops a skirmisher from moving makes him useless.
Expeditious Dodge is strictly better than Dodge in almost all ways.  If it's allowed, take it.
Flawless Stride keeps you charging on any kind of natural terrain, but nothing that's currently under an ongoing magical effect (see; Grease, Entangle, etc.)
Fleet of Foot is a different benefit altogether, since it lets you make one turn while charging.  It's a handy thing thing to have in some situations, but the most use you'd probably see out of it is charging around a corner in a corridor after someone.

As for skills, Disable Device is only necessary if you are the party rogue (I.E. the only one with Trapfinding).  If you are, then great, keep maxing it.  Otherwise forget it. 

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 08:24:15 PM »
Just remember that skirmish is errata'ed to moving 10 feet away from your current position to activate it. Which means that melee is going to be 1st round) charge 2nd round) move away, whereas ranged weapons give you a steady damage output.
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Negative Zero

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 08:49:09 PM »
Just remember that skirmish is errata'ed to moving 10 feet away from your current position to activate it. Which means that melee is going to be 1st round) charge 2nd round) move away, whereas ranged weapons give you a steady damage output.

The other side of the target should be 10 feet away, but the tumble check to get there without AoOs is pretty tough at low levels.

Havok4

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 09:13:09 PM »
Travel devotion is always a good pick for a scout. Also evasive reflexes (feat) is nice if you are going for spring attack anyway.

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 09:43:58 PM »
Just remember that skirmish is errata'ed to moving 10 feet away from your current position to activate it. Which means that melee is going to be 1st round) charge 2nd round) move away, whereas ranged weapons give you a steady damage output.

The other side of the target should be 10 feet away, but the tumble check to get there without AoOs is pretty tough at low levels.
I've got a pretty good Dex, and by 2nd level I'll have a Tumble modifier of +11.

Travel Devotion could be an interesting option.  I don't think I really want to go for the cleric dip to get extra uses, however.

It's a new group, and I don't know want to over-do the optimizing.  By the time I would need to know about going Swift Hunter or taking a level of Barb for pouncing, I'll have a better feel for the group.
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melinore

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 11:34:33 PM »
If you do take a level of Ranger and get Favored Enemy you might want to look at the Alternative Class Feature found in Complete Mage called Arcane Hunter. Let's you take Arcane spellcasters as a Favored Enemy which depending on the campaign could be a more useful category than the others.

Hallack

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 11:54:15 AM »
I have enjoyed playing Scout before and as you noticed they are a pretty nice class in and of themselves even it going pure.  They don't have tons of raw power but ussually have lots of options and ways to contribute.

Depending on the level of optimization and character concept you may even want to consider a cleric dip, perhaps even Cloistered Cleric if it is allowed.

You could then take a couple Domains like Knowledge and Travel (or others) that would help out alot, especially if you trade them in for the Devotions.  Not to mention Whatever Domain powers you could get and access to some spells.
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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 01:47:28 PM »
Travel devotion is always a good pick for a scout. Also evasive reflexes (feat) is nice if you are going for spring attack anyway.

I second this. 1 level of Cloistered Cleric, with the knowledge, travel, and any other domain (Hmm... Any domains grant mettle?). Swap the first two for the reserve feats and go to town.

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 02:44:44 PM »
Just remember that skirmish is errata'ed to moving 10 feet away from your current position to activate it. Which means that melee is going to be 1st round) charge 2nd round) move away, whereas ranged weapons give you a steady damage output.

The other side of the target should be 10 feet away, but the tumble check to get there without AoOs is pretty tough at low levels.
I've got a pretty good Dex, and by 2nd level I'll have a Tumble modifier of +11.

Travel Devotion could be an interesting option.  I don't think I really want to go for the cleric dip to get extra uses, however.

It's a new group, and I don't know want to over-do the optimizing.  By the time I would need to know about going Swift Hunter or taking a level of Barb for pouncing, I'll have a better feel for the group.

Yeah I mean pretty much the key to scout is to find a way to full attack and get Skirmish.  The damage doesn't match a TWF Rogue, but it can be seen as extreme to some people.

I like the Avian (RoW). They are LA +0 and can glide/fly as they level up.  Thus allowing you to strafe the battle field, while raining skirmish damage with their foot bows, all without having to move by just letting the wind carry them.  Very cool.
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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 03:34:18 PM »
I like the Avian Raptorian(RoW). They are LA +0 and can glide/fly as they level up.  Thus allowing you to strafe the battle field, while raining skirmish damage with their foot bows, all without having to move by just letting the wind carry them.  Very cool.

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Havok4

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 05:59:28 PM »

 Swap the first two for the reserve feats and go to town.
Devotion feats actually.

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 07:50:56 AM »

 Swap the first two for the reserve feats and go to town.
Devotion feats actually.

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 10:22:50 AM »
ITT: Minor errors.

Cloistered Cleric 1/Barb 1/Ranger X/Scout Y is probably your best bet, unless there is a Swift Hunter Prestige Class out there.

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 10:42:34 AM »
IMHO Totemist Scouts make for an interesting break from the ever-present Lion Totem barb dips. Take two levels and the Landshark boots (to get four attacks as a standard action for melee) or the Manticore Belt (for ranged).

One thing to note about Travel devotion: It lasts for one minute, so you could just take the feat for one fight a day.

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 07:25:29 PM »
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 08:02:09 PM »
Hengeyokai Shapeshifter... :D

Havok4

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2010, 08:07:33 PM »
Hengeyokai Shapeshifter... :D
I second this, it is by far the best way to get wildshape on a noncaster. Just be sure to use the 3.5 update that gives you max HD equal to your character level.

Endarire

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 08:53:54 PM »
Hood was revised from Tempest Stormwind's Scout dragoon.
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Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Optimizing a Scout
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2010, 12:43:28 AM »
Hengeyokai Shapeshifter... :D
I second this, it is by far the best way to get wildshape on a noncaster. Just be sure to use the 3.5 update that gives you max HD equal to your character level.
I should clarify.  This character is already in play, and is second level (Scout 2).  The options available to me are really just Wildshape Ranger or Abolisher, though I could probably use Abolisher to qualify for Shapeshifter (and I bet the DM will allow OA - he loves distana).

I hadn't thought of Shapeshifter - I'll need to give this more thought.  It could turn out interesting.
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