Author Topic: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?  (Read 3815 times)

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kevin_video

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Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« on: February 04, 2010, 09:17:09 PM »
I didn't know that psionics were so powerful in 3.0. A friend of mine, who refuses to update to 3.5, Pathfinder, or 4th, showed me one of her books. It was the psionic book, and I can see why she wouldn't want to go to 3.5 Expanded Psionics. WTF happened to the Psychic Warrior? They got hit hard. All they kept of the original build was the number of powers known from 1st to 6th (as in the number you got, not when you received powers), the BAB, the skill points per level, and where the bonus feats were received. They lost 2 power points, Weapon Specialization, their 0th lvl powers, and all of the psionic combat modes.

Paizo's coming out with Pathfinder psionics, and I'm honestly hoping that they bring back the 0th level powers. There were a lot of good powers in there. Especially if you wanted to mimic Spider-Man, and they were at-will too. I also hope that they power them up some. At least back to what the 3.0 version was.

So I have to ask. Why would they do that? The wizard's kept the same throughout the whole game (even PF knew they were super powerful and didn't change them), so why nerf the psy war? Because the fighter looks that much more unappealing?
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JaronK

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 09:57:02 PM »
Honestly, the 3.5 psywar is pretty balanced as far as my opinion goes.  It's certainly not bad.  Wizards, meanwhile, are not exactly the paragons of balance to hold Psywars up to.  I like what they did to the psywar... they should have done it to the Wizard (and Psion!) too.

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kevin_video

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 09:58:38 PM »
I just finished looking over the PF version of the PsyWar. It's kept pretty much the same except they've given it 2 more PP, and it's dead levels have things in it that rival the Fighter's new abilities. Still no 0th level powers though.
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veekie

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 10:36:15 PM »
I just finished looking over the PF version of the PsyWar. It's kept pretty much the same except they've given it 2 more PP, and it's dead levels have things in it that rival the Fighter's new abilities. Still no 0th level powers though.
Ooo, didn't know that came out already.

All in all, I think the 3.5 PsyWar is very well made, just enough asskicking, versatility to be effective.
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kevin_video

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 10:37:18 PM »
I just finished looking over the PF version of the PsyWar. It's kept pretty much the same except they've given it 2 more PP, and it's dead levels have things in it that rival the Fighter's new abilities. Still no 0th level powers though.
Ooo, didn't know that came out already.

All in all, I think the 3.5 PsyWar is very well made, just enough asskicking, versatility to be effective.
Not officially, no. It's just the beta version, but you can already pre-order the book.
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GawainBS

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 07:50:23 AM »
Care to link it?

kevin_video

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 09:30:41 AM »
Care to link it?
You bet. http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro.html

About the only upgrade that I do not like, and I'm trying to get them to change, is the soulknife having Fort/Ref instead of the Ref/Will it was before. I don't get why the hell they changed it, and as of yet they haven't explained why either. The soul blade still requires a DC 20 Will save to be made if you're in an anti-magic/psionic field to produce, yet your Will is absolute crap. I just don't get why they'd do such a nerf on that.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 04:58:59 PM »


Why would they do that?


To get people to buy the book?

One thing to keep in mind about v3.0e psionics, is MAD casting.
As in Wisdom for Clairsentience, Dex for Psychoportation, Cha for Telepathy, etc ...
But v3.5e got rid of that, and made Wis the "casting" stat for PsyWars.
The consolidation makes PsyWar an easier class to build, and Psions a whole lot better.

I think the easy CO concensus, is that 3.5 psi is a better system than 3.0, but it isn't walk-off easy to learn it.
It looks the same, it feels almost the same, but lots of little differences are in there.
The old Psi-board on wizards.com still has some of the info threads.
Some of the old psi- gang, has moved on to dreamscarred press. (gawain's link just above)

" ... Nerfed ... "
hmm ... it's possible that with an all-in 3.0 build and total CO-tricks, that a 3.0 PsyWar might do some things
different or slightly better, than a 3.5 PsyWar. There is so much more material now official and otherwise, for 3.5
I'd have to say no, that a 3.5 psywar would be stronger, but maybe not noticeably stronger til later levels.

GawainBS

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 05:06:56 PM »
Care to link it?
You bet. http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro.html

About the only upgrade that I do not like, and I'm trying to get them to change, is the soulknife having Fort/Ref instead of the Ref/Will it was before. I don't get why the hell they changed it, and as of yet they haven't explained why either. The soul blade still requires a DC 20 Will save to be made if you're in an anti-magic/psionic field to produce, yet your Will is absolute crap. I just don't get why they'd do such a nerf on that.

Trust me, that would be the least of your worries as a Soulknife. For starters, there's you being a Soulknife. :P

The PW looks nice, though, and the paths add a nice touch. Weapon Master and Ascetic seem the best ones. Weapon Master + Tashalatora? Yes, please!

kevin_video

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 05:13:28 PM »
Trust me, that would be the least of your worries as a Soulknife. For starters, there's you being a Soulknife. :P

The PW looks nice, though, and the paths add a nice touch. Weapon Master and Ascetic seem the best ones. Weapon Master + Tashalatora? Yes, please!
lol Yeah, you could be the Slayer. Good grief that PrC bothers me. As it's written, I'd totally houserule it. But the Soulknife seems better than the original 3/4 progression. At least it's full BAB and has a +9 mind blade by the end.

I like that your get more skill points, although you still don't get a whole lot of skills to spend them in. But with PF, that's unnecessary anyways because all races have Able Learner for free. The weapon mastery is definitely something nice to see on the PsyWar.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 05:16:58 PM »
As far as your nerfs from 3.0 to 3.5. They eliminated attack and defense modes entirely as well as 0 level powers so it wouldn't have done any good for the class to keep them.
And the big reason that Psi in 3.0 was broken was because they emulated spells exactly and it allowed the equivalent of trading lower level spell slots up to your highest level spells. Imagine a wizard that could convert all of his 1st - 8th level slots to a lesser number of 9th level spells.
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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 05:19:02 PM »
Proven fact: Paizo knows nothing about balancing a class. Case and Points: the Pathfinder Errata, Wizards in general, numerous other examples.


Opinion: Use the 3.5 PsyWar. It's actually really balanced, and doesn't have the major problems that the 3.0 does. The only major change I'd make is giving them more Skill Points/skills ala the Bo9S, but that's just me.


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kevin_video

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 05:21:20 PM »
As far as your nerfs from 3.0 to 3.5. They eliminated attack and defense modes entirely as well as 0 level powers so it wouldn't have done any good for the class to keep them.
And the big reason that Psi in 3.0 was broken was because they emulated spells exactly and it allowed the equivalent of trading lower level spell slots up to your highest level spells. Imagine a wizard that could convert all of his 1st - 8th level slots to a lesser number of 9th level spells.
You mean you can't? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

Opinion: Use the 3.5 PsyWar. It's actually really balanced, and doesn't have the major problems that the 3.0 does. The only major change I'd make is giving them more Skill Points/skills ala the Bo9S, but that's just me.
The PF version gives the PsyWar 4+INT skill point/level.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 06:53:45 PM »
Yup like spell points except psionics didn't work that way in 3.0. This scales with points spent before you would just pay the 5 points and could get a 10d6 fireball. Also they didn't have the spellpoint variant for 3.0 it was added after XPH was released and showed how to do it better, though it still breaks down which is why spellpoints aren't the default.

We all know that the top level of spells are the only relevant ones most of the time.
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Endarire

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 04:20:50 AM »
A typical Hood relies on PsyWar1 to get Up the Walls, but that's it.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 10:39:23 AM »
Yup like spell points except psionics didn't work that way in 3.0. This scales with points spent before you would just pay the 5 points and could get a 10d6 fireball. Also they didn't have the spellpoint variant for 3.0 it was added after XPH was released and showed how to do it better, though it still breaks down which is why spellpoints aren't the default.

We all know that the top level of spells are the only relevant ones most of the time.
Exactly.  Also, the percentage difference in cost at low levels adds another problem: A second level spell costs three times as much as a 1st level spell.  So, a 3rd level wizard can do three times as much stuff by casting Color Spray and Grease instead of Glitterdust.  Glitterdust is awesome, but probably not as much as three first level spells.

At higher levels, the problem is reversed in that a 9th level spell only costs 2/15 (13.3%) more than an 8th level spell.  So you never cast anything but your highest level spell, as you already pointed out.

So basically, at low levels, SP systems make casters more powerful.  At mid-high levels, SP systems make casters more powerful.  Hmmm.....

This system can work a bit better with psionics than magic because it was designed for it, but it still has plenty of holes.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Wait. So, 3.5 Nerfed That Class?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2010, 10:32:01 AM »
Yup like spell points except psionics didn't work that way in 3.0. This scales with points spent before you would just pay the 5 points and could get a 10d6 fireball. Also they didn't have the spellpoint variant for 3.0 it was added after XPH was released and showed how to do it better, though it still breaks down which is why spellpoints aren't the default.

We all know that the top level of spells are the only relevant ones most of the time.
Exactly.  Also, the percentage difference in cost at low levels adds another problem: A second level spell costs three times as much as a 1st level spell.  So, a 3rd level wizard can do three times as much stuff by casting Color Spray and Grease instead of Glitterdust.  Glitterdust is awesome, but probably not as much as three first level spells.

At higher levels, the problem is reversed in that a 9th level spell only costs 2/15 (13.3%) more than an 8th level spell.  So you never cast anything but your highest level spell, as you already pointed out.

So basically, at low levels, SP systems make casters more powerful.  At mid-high levels, SP systems make casters more powerful.  Hmmm.....

This system can work a bit better with psionics than magic because it was designed for it, but it still has plenty of holes.
Hmm... I think that augmenting does the trick pretty well for psionics.