Author Topic: Arch-Erudite from Hell  (Read 12959 times)

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Rejakor

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2011, 03:24:26 PM »
Quote from: Rejakor
Powers count as SLAs under 'identical', actually, due to them being psilikes.  Which I do believe qualify for prestige classes under some FAQ or Sage ruling, fucked if I care enough to go look it up though.

Quote from: beholderslayer
Quote from: CArc
Stuff

Care to continue your herp derp?

Since I don't know you, and so far your posts have consisted of blatant, pure, unadulterated idiocy...

Hi Welcome

Yeah man, you're a real cool guy eh.  Refute the part of my post I noted I was unsure on, ignore the rest, and doesn't afraid of anything.

Spamming Hi Welcome is totally an argument.  In before 'your arguments are herp derp so that's why I strawmanned them and didn't address them despite you repeating them multiple times while I spammed Hi Welcome like a fucking herp derp retard'.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2011, 03:33:35 PM »
Ignoring more Fail.

This actually looks mildly interesting now. *grabs snacks*
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2011, 04:57:15 PM »
Timmy says Southern Magician says you can be a Lord of the Waste as a Sorcerer and by saint Pelor he must be right!
This might be a quibble, but this is the only part I disagree with you about. The Sage is RAW and blah blah can't qualify for Divine prestige classes, but WitW is different. It doesn't require "Cast 3rd Level Divine Spells," it requires you to cast three Thirst/Sand spell as divine spells. It doesn't require divine spellcasting, only the spells to count as Divine.

In cases of "Cast 3rd Level Divine Spells," then I completely agree with you.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2011, 05:23:23 PM »
Quote from: Rejakor
Powers count as SLAs under 'identical', actually, due to them being psilikes.  Which I do believe qualify for prestige classes under some FAQ or Sage ruling, fucked if I care enough to go look it up though.

Quote from: beholderslayer
Quote from: CArc
Stuff

Care to continue your herp derp?

Since I don't know you, and so far your posts have consisted of blatant, pure, unadulterated idiocy...

Hi Welcome

Yeah man, you're a real cool guy eh.  Refute the part of my post I noted I was unsure on, ignore the rest, and doesn't afraid of anything.

Spamming Hi Welcome is totally an argument.  In before 'your arguments are herp derp so that's why I strawmanned them and didn't address them despite you repeating them multiple times while I spammed Hi Welcome like a fucking herp derp retard'.

Your argument that manifesting level X powers counts as casting level X spells was thoroughly crushed through those two quotes, alone. Your ignorant assumption that SLA's qualify you for prestige classes that require being able to cast spells of level X was what bound your entire argument together. Your post had zero substance to start with, so how you claim you made any arguments other than the part that I destroyed irretrievably is beyond me. Psionic powers that are identical to magic are still psionic powers, not magic spells. It's really not that complicated.

Case in point: identical twins. Despite being identical, they are not the same person.

Trust me, you really don't want to try to argue; you've already lost.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2011, 05:45:16 PM »
Wow, you bring failing at reading comprehension to an entirely new level.

Hi Welcome.

What part of 'powers count as SLAs' did you not hear me say?  If I was saying that powers = spells, which, they don't, at all, ever, why in /fuck/ didn't I, y'know, say that at any point?

What fucking happens is that '+1 level in arcane spellcasting class', due to the fact that 'arcane spellcasting class' means something different than 'class that can cast arcane spells' can apply to your manifesting class with 'psionics and magic are treated as identical for you'.  If you can get spells from somewhere to qualify for whatever fucking arcane prestige class you feel like, you can totally advance your manifesting from it.

StP Erudite, under some readings of the StP rules, could count spells learned via StP as arcane spells as well as/instead of powers, and therefore could qualify for arcane prestige classes that way.  Or just use one of the many early entry/get spells of X level tricks to get in with minimal/little investment.

Holy shit.  You derailed this entire thread because you were that retarded/had an axe to grind?  Seriously.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2011, 05:54:50 PM »
Wow, you bring failing at reading comprehension to an entirely new level.

Hi Welcome.

What part of 'powers count as SLAs' did you not hear me say?  If I was saying that powers = spells, which, they don't, at all, ever, why in /fuck/ didn't I, y'know, say that at any point?

What fucking happens is that '+1 level in arcane spellcasting class', due to the fact that 'arcane spellcasting class' means something different than 'class that can cast arcane spells' can apply to your manifesting class with 'psionics and magic are treated as identical for you'.  If you can get spells from somewhere to qualify for whatever fucking arcane prestige class you feel like, you can totally advance your manifesting from it.

StP Erudite, under some readings of the StP rules, could count spells learned via StP as arcane spells as well as/instead of powers, and therefore could qualify for arcane prestige classes that way.  Or just use one of the many early entry/get spells of X level tricks to get in with minimal/little investment.

Holy shit.  You derailed this entire thread because you were that retarded/had an axe to grind?  Seriously.
That's your argument? Really? Wow. It's a good thing you didn't say that before, because this brings your idiocy to a new level.

Where the fuck did you get the idea that "magic and psionics are identical" means that "arcane spellcasting class" = "manifesting class?"

As you've already admitted that powers are not spells, and that casting spells is not the same as manifesting powers, what the fuck don't you understand about the word "SPELLCASTER?" How can "spellcaster" mean anything other than "somebody that casts spells?" Throw the word "arcane" in front of it, and ooo, looky, now it's somebody that casts arcane spells. What a concept.

You would maybe have a point if the rules still used the title "magic-user," but they don't. They use "spellcaster." The Magic Mantle states that it makes you treat psionics the same as MAGIC. It does not say that your psionic powers are magic SPELLS. It doesn't give you the ability to CAST SPELLS. It doesn't advance your SPELLCASTER level because you don't fucking have one. You have psionics that are treated the same as MAGIC, not the same as SPELLS.

Furthermore, we aren't talking about an StP Erudite, we're talking about a Mantled Erudite with Magic Mantle. Even if we were talking about a StP Erudite, it wouldn't work because you don't have the ability to fucking CAST SPELLS. You MANIFEST spells, it's right there in the rules, and no amount of butbutbut'ing will change it. You don't have a SPELLCASTER level, because you're not casting spells, and therefore cannot enter arcane spellcasting PrC's. Any other attempt at interpreting it otherwise can only be explained away by the person being a fucking moron.

Quote
Holy shit.  You derailed this entire thread because you were that retarded/had an axe to grind?  Seriously.
Project much?  :lol
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 06:01:17 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Wings of Peace

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2011, 06:01:20 PM »
I'm not the trendiest man, so if this post offends anyone I'll try to ninja edit in some profanities so I can keep with the current direction of the thread.

Now, in response to the point of psi-likes since I like being the devil's advocate.  Magic Mantle which Kell's Erudite is using does not in any way directly reference normal Magic/Psionic transparency rules.  To clarify it says:

"You gain UMD as a class skill... [skip to relevant paragraph]
In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical.  Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics works for both magic and psionics.  Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems."


Now, yes I fully understand that it's obvious the ability's author is referring to the magic/psionic transparency rule.  However, if we go strictly RAW period for period, the literal meaning of the paragraph is that magic and psionics are now identical.  Not transparent, identical.  Taken in literal form the sentences following that statement do not actually propose a logical link between this identicleness (probably not a word) and the transparency rule.  The sentences merely state that in fact this is how most campaigns are run (whether that is true or not is irrelevant, grammatically that is how the logic as written transitions).

Since this ability is seperate from the transparency rule I would also argue that if we go at things as pure literalists then Magic Mantle overrides Transparency as a case of specific rule vs. general rule (or whatever the term is).

Edit: I would note however, that under the interpretation I've proposed Psionics merely qualify as spells, not arcane or divine spells.  This makes their use for qualifying for prcs questionable without hijinx.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 06:11:14 PM by Wings of Peace »

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2011, 06:05:15 PM »
I'm not the trendiest man, so if this post offends anyone I'll try to ninja edit in some profanities so I can keep with the current direction of the thread.

Now, in response to the point of psi-likes since I like being the devil's advocate.  Magic Mantle which Kell's Erudite is using does not in any way directly reference normal Magic/Psionic transparency rules.  To clarify it says:

"You gain UMD as a class skill... [skip to relevant paragraph]
In addition, you always treat magics and psionics as identical.  Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics works for both magic and psionics.  Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems."


Now, yes I fully understand that it's obvious the ability's author is referring to the magic/psionic transparency rule.  However, if we go strictly RAW period for period, the literal meaning of the paragraph is that magic and psionics are now identical.  Not transparent, identical.  Taken in literal form the sentences following that statement do not actually propose a logical link between this identicleness (probably not a word) and the transparency rule.  The sentences merely state that in fact this is how most campaigns are run (whether that is true or not is irrelevant, grammatically that is how the logic as written transitions).

Since this ability is seperate from the transparency rule I would also argue that if we go at things as pure literalists then Magic Mantle overrides Transparency as a case of specific rule vs. general rule (or whatever the term is).

Edit: I would note however, that under the interpretation I've proposed Psionics merely qualify as spells, not arcane or divine spells.  This makes their use for qualifying for prcs questionable without hijinx.

Technically, by RAW, psionics only qualify as magic. They don't qualify as "spells." Invocations are another form of magic. Since the mantle does not specifically state "spells," it does not mean "spells."
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Wings of Peace

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2011, 06:17:43 PM »
I'm not the trendiest man, so if this post offends anyone I'll try to ninja edit in some profanities so I can keep with the current direction of the thread.

Now, in response to the point of psi-likes since I like being the devil's advocate.  Magic Mantle which Kell's Erudite is using does not in any way directly reference normal Magic/Psionic transparency rules.  To clarify it says:

"You gain UMD as a class skill... [skip to relevant paragraph]
In addition, you always treat magics and psionics as identical.  Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics works for both magic and psionics.  Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems."


Now, yes I fully understand that it's obvious the ability's author is referring to the magic/psionic transparency rule.  However, if we go strictly RAW period for period, the literal meaning of the paragraph is that magic and psionics are now identical.  Not transparent, identical.  Taken in literal form the sentences following that statement do not actually propose a logical link between this identicleness (probably not a word) and the transparency rule.  The sentences merely state that in fact this is how most campaigns are run (whether that is true or not is irrelevant, grammatically that is how the logic as written transitions).

Since this ability is seperate from the transparency rule I would also argue that if we go at things as pure literalists then Magic Mantle overrides Transparency as a case of specific rule vs. general rule (or whatever the term is).

Edit: I would note however, that under the interpretation I've proposed Psionics merely qualify as spells, not arcane or divine spells.  This makes their use for qualifying for prcs questionable without hijinx.

Technically, by RAW, psionics only qualify as magic. They don't qualify as "spells." Invocations are another form of magic. Since the mantle does not specifically state "spells," it does not mean "spells."

I'm uncertain.  I'm not saying you're argument is invalid, but in the feats section of Complete Arcane it specifically calls out Invocations as Spell-Likes, meaning they fall under an already different set of rules.  While that may or may not make a difference, it eliminates the precedent in your argument for saying that we can't now use the magic and psionic terminologies with relative interchangeability.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2011, 06:32:06 PM »
Abilities often state what a power does, then explains how exactly to adjudicate it with mechanics. Ignoring everything but one sentence of an ability is fucking retarded.
Quote from: Rapid Shot
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon.
Quote from: Scribe Scroll
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.
I could keep going but you get the point. Saying that RAW Magic Mantle makes magic and psionics truly identical is logically equivalent to saying Rapid Shot allows for an extra ranged attack every round at no cost. Or that Shield provides Cover.

You have to read the entire description of the ability and view it in context.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2011, 06:55:00 PM »
I'm not the trendiest man, so if this post offends anyone I'll try to ninja edit in some profanities so I can keep with the current direction of the thread.

Now, in response to the point of psi-likes since I like being the devil's advocate.  Magic Mantle which Kell's Erudite is using does not in any way directly reference normal Magic/Psionic transparency rules.  To clarify it says:

"You gain UMD as a class skill... [skip to relevant paragraph]
In addition, you always treat magics and psionics as identical.  Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics works for both magic and psionics.  Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems."


Now, yes I fully understand that it's obvious the ability's author is referring to the magic/psionic transparency rule.  However, if we go strictly RAW period for period, the literal meaning of the paragraph is that magic and psionics are now identical.  Not transparent, identical.  Taken in literal form the sentences following that statement do not actually propose a logical link between this identicleness (probably not a word) and the transparency rule.  The sentences merely state that in fact this is how most campaigns are run (whether that is true or not is irrelevant, grammatically that is how the logic as written transitions).

Since this ability is seperate from the transparency rule I would also argue that if we go at things as pure literalists then Magic Mantle overrides Transparency as a case of specific rule vs. general rule (or whatever the term is).

Edit: I would note however, that under the interpretation I've proposed Psionics merely qualify as spells, not arcane or divine spells.  This makes their use for qualifying for prcs questionable without hijinx.

Technically, by RAW, psionics only qualify as magic. They don't qualify as "spells." Invocations are another form of magic. Since the mantle does not specifically state "spells," it does not mean "spells."

I'm uncertain.  I'm not saying you're argument is invalid, but in the feats section of Complete Arcane it specifically calls out Invocations as Spell-Likes, meaning they fall under an already different set of rules.  While that may or may not make a difference, it eliminates the precedent in your argument for saying that we can't now use the magic and psionic terminologies with relative interchangeability.
Incarnum is another thing considered "magic" but not covered under "spells." Also, Vestige Binding and Shadowcasting. "Magic" is extremely general and does not necessarily mean "spells."
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2011, 07:45:20 PM »
Abilities often state what a power does, then explains how exactly to adjudicate it with mechanics. Ignoring everything but one sentence of an ability is fucking retarded.
Quote from: Rapid Shot
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon.
Quote from: Scribe Scroll
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.
I could keep going but you get the point. Saying that RAW Magic Mantle makes magic and psionics truly identical is logically equivalent to saying Rapid Shot allows for an extra ranged attack every round at no cost. Or that Shield provides Cover.

You have to read the entire description of the ability and view it in context.

To be fair, Shield (spell) actually does provide cover. In 3rd edition. :P
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2011, 07:59:28 PM »
Spamming Hi Welcome is totally an argument.
For an idiotic troll or someone who cannot come up with their own rebutting it is. Which is all you amount to and everyone gets bored of feeding the trolls for their own entertainment at some point. Basically, you're a free hooker for BeholderSlayer right now. Except you don't get to fake an orgasm at the end and BS doesn't get your diseases.

***

That's your argument? Really? Wow. It's a good thing you didn't say that before, because this brings your idiocy to a new level.
Agreed.

***

Abilities often state what a power does, then explains how exactly to adjudicate it with mechanics. Ignoring everything but one sentence of an ability is fucking retarded.
Quote from: Rapid Shot
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon.
Quote from: Scribe Scroll
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.
I could keep going but you get the point. Saying that RAW Magic Mantle makes magic and psionics truly identical is logically equivalent to saying Rapid Shot allows for an extra ranged attack every round at no cost. Or that Shield provides Cover.

You have to read the entire description of the ability and view it in context.
Plus-Fucking-Fifteen.

I never know I had a son, or perhaps an understudy, or even lamer perhaps just another guy on the forums stealing my copyrighted method.

***

Incarnum is another thing considered "magic" but not covered under "spells." Also, Vestige Binding and Shadowcasting. "Magic" is extremely general and does not necessarily mean "spells."
Maneuvers got referenced as "blade magic" in it's own book as well. Magic is a very ambiguous term.

***

*steals some of Sunic's snacks*
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Arch-Erudite from Hell
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2011, 10:44:16 AM »
Spamming Hi Welcome is totally an argument.
For an idiotic troll or someone who cannot come up with their own rebutting it is. Which is all you amount to and everyone gets bored of feeding the trolls for their own entertainment at some point. Basically, you're a free hooker for BeholderSlayer right now. Except you don't get to fake an orgasm at the end and BS doesn't get your diseases.

 :lmao

Quote
Incarnum is another thing considered "magic" but not covered under "spells." Also, Vestige Binding and Shadowcasting. "Magic" is extremely general and does not necessarily mean "spells."
Maneuvers got referenced as "blade magic" in it's own book as well. Magic is a very ambiguous term.

***

*steals some of Sunic's snacks*

*automatically annihilates SorO, as no one touches my fucking food* :fo
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]