Character creation

[VennDygrem]

I only need as many returning daggers as I have attacks. I need more than that if they're not returning.
By 12th level I'll have 2 attacks from BAB, 1 from Whirling Frenzy, 1 from Rapid Shot, 1 from TWF, and possibly one from haste, and an extra one for each of those from Palm throw. That's a maximum of 12 daggers in a round (only half of which can apply SA damage, but most should get bonuses from Dead Eye, Vital Aim, etc.) So I'd need 12 returning daggers or 6 returning daggers and several non-magical ones.

At 8302 gp a pop, that's between 49,812 and 99,624 gp for a full set. That gets a wee-bit pricey. Of course, if you can Chain GMW and grant them Returning, that makes things easier, but can you guarantee I have the enchantment at the start of every combat? That's probably gonna be a few spell slots devoted to just that one spell, and just for my character. If you can manage the investment, then that's fine.

@Phaedrus: I don't have the feats to do that. Why would I use daggers for melee, anyway, when I could use a rapier or something with more bite?
If I go with the skiprocks, then that means making my feat Weapon Focus (skiprocks) and only applying my Dead Eye bonus damage on those. Plus, keep in mind that skiprocks only do their ricochet against adjacent creatures. If there are none, then what was the point? It's fine if you're going up against a stationary mob, but if they move apart then your advantage dissolves.

My main focus has already been Ranged, along with my resource investment. My build is already geared toward making me really good with a volley of ranged attacks and pretty decent in melee when I need to be (that's what those swordsage levels are going to do).

It seems like this is a neat concept on paper but is getting to be a bit of a headache in practice. 

[bearsarebrown]

My understanding of RHoD is that there will almost always be multiple enemies. And with the sheer amount of BFC we have, they won't  be moving. I think it's worth getting Skiprocks.

[Nanshork]

GMW can't grant abilities, just enhancement bonuses, so I can't help out with that.

[PhaedrusXY]

What is your current build progression, anyway? If you take Swordsage as your 2nd level (5th HD), you can get Cloak of Deception, which is a guaranteed round of sneak attacks, basically. You'll also get Discipline Focus, which gives you Wpn Focus in a group of weapons (including dagger).

I'd go ahead and take it. I'm guessing you were holding out to get higher level starting maneuvers, which I can understand. But I think it will make things a lot easier on you in the short term if you go ahead and go with it.

Then dip something else for the 6th HD, and SS2 at 7th for Assassin's Stance.

I don't know if I'd even take any rogue levels at all, if it were me. If you want trapfinding, take a level of ranger with that instead of Track, maybe. So overall, I guess I'd suggest:

HD3/Ftr1/SS1/Rng1/SS2/MT1

Or sub out ranger for something else. It does open up wand use though (w/o UMD), and there are a lot of good low level ranger spells.

[VennDygrem]

Urg, it almost seems like I should start from scratch. I thought I had found something that worked, but it falls apart too easily. It either relies too heavily on equipment or it doesn't hit enough enemies. :/

Maybe I should just go for a blasting focused caster instead. -_-

[PhaedrusXY]

Urg, it almost seems like I should start from scratch. I thought I had found something that worked, but it falls apart too easily. It either relies too heavily on equipment or it doesn't hit enough enemies. :/

Maybe I should just go for a blasting focused caster instead. -_-

Bah. What about this? Screw rapiers and all other weapons. Just use daggers. Your damage is from SA and Dex.

RHD3/Ftr1/SwdSg1/InvBld1/MstThr1/SswdSg2

Feats: PBS (RB), Precise Shot (RB), Quick Draw (1), Far Shot (flaw), Wpn Focus (retrain to Craven at 5th) (flaw), Dead Eye (3), Discipline Focus (SS1), Shadow Hand (6), Quick Draw (MT1)

Items: Gloves of the Balanced Hands (grant TWF), two feycraft daggers (grant Weapon Finesse), a bunch of standard daggers, Lesser MM Rod of Chain Spell (if you want GMW on some of your daggers)

You'll have 2d6+level SA starting out, and Dex to damage twice.  Just use non-magical daggers. Or get a hit of MW/GMW on them from Nanshork, but it's not really a big deal unless we run into something with DR X/magic.

At 6th, you'll have 3d6+level SA with daggers, Dex to damage 3x with them ranged, and 1x in melee.

Retrain Quick Draw to something else at 7th, as you get it as a bonus. I'd also take Palm Throw. Even though I don't think SA will apply to both attacks, your 3x Dex mod will. I'd still use mostly non-magical daggers. Returning is too damned expensive and crappy.

At 8th, you'll upgrade to 5d6 SA with Assassin's Stance.

After that, you might consider a rogue or trapfinding ranger level, since we might run into traps late in the game he said. Or we can try other clever ways to deal with them, if you don't want to be the trap-monkey.

Definitely make Dex your highest stat by far. I'd go Con or Int 2nd, and the other 3rd, and then whatever.

[VennDygrem]

That's fairly similar to Bowen's suggested build, which I was working off of, which was RHD 3/Ftr 1/Rog 1/Bbn 1/MT 1/SS 2/Rog +2/Ftr 1
I was going off a modified version of the above, since I wouldn't need that last level of fighter, but you get the idea.

Basically, the above version gets a 4d6 SA from classes, +2d6 from assassin's stance by level 9 for a total of 6d6 SA, plus Dex to damage several times via feats and ACFs. It gets between 8 and 12 attacks per round, depending on whether it's hasted or not. And I didn't worry about magical daggers until someone mentioned DR.

Neither build really has the skill points to sink into trapfinding (and you're doesn't even get DD as a class skill at all). If that's even a concern, I'd be better off going back to my Beguiler (though again that seems unnecessary- We're good on BFC).

I hate being such a pain, but I really do want to be useful to the group.

[PhaedrusXY]

I was mainly focusing on keeping BAB high and SA as high as reasonable, and also nabbing nice class abilities and bonus feats. We won't need trapfinding till later, and I think we can probably do without it at all, if we are careful.

We can use an Unseen Servant dragging around a 100 lb weight. That plus Detect Magic should find most of them. Then we can send in some of Nanshork's summoned demons to set them off. I don't think anyone will feel bad about sending a demon into a death trap... Flumph can go ahead of everyone else and take the brunt of any we miss, since he'll probably have the most hit points and Fort save, and he's immune to mind affecting stuff. By then, I hope to have some of the saving throw counters also, so I can use Concentration for saves.

No build is going to be absolutely perfect. The one I suggested gets a lot of attacks and good damage. By 8th level, you'll be dishing out like 45 per attack and have 10 attacks when hasted and using Palm Throw. That's freakin' nasty. I did forget one feat, though (Rapid Shot). So you'd probably want to exchange Craven for that, and re-take Craven at 9th.

[VennDygrem]

I was mainly focusing on keeping BAB high and SA as high as reasonable, and also nabbing nice class abilities and bonus feats. We won't need trapfinding till later, and I think we can probably do without it at all, if we are careful.

We can use an Unseen Servant dragging around a 100 lb weight. That plus Detect Magic should find most of them. Then we can send in some of Nanshork's summoned demons to set them off. I don't think anyone will feel bad about sending a demon into a death trap... Flumph can go ahead of everyone else and take the brunt of any we miss, since he'll probably have the most hit points and Fort save, and he's immune to mind affecting stuff. By then, I hope to have some of the saving throw counters also, so I can use Concentration for saves.

No build is going to be absolutely perfect. The one I suggested gets a lot of attacks and good damage. By 8th level, you'll be dishing out like 45 per attack and have 10 attacks when hasted and using Palm Throw. That's freakin' nasty. I did forget one feat, though (Rapid Shot). So you'd probably want to exchange Craven for that, and re-take Craven at 9th.

Actually, Marralurk gets Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, not Precise shot, but I get the point. I can probably make due without far shot to begin with, possibly. I figured I'd retrain Quick Draw out for Craven once I hit Master Thrower. I still haven't figured out where I can fit Darkstalker. It won't make much difference against most hobgoblins, but there's a chance we'll be up against some other creatures that it would be useful against. Plus, if I'm going to be sneaky, I might as well be as sneaky as possible.

[PhaedrusXY]

Actually, Marralurk gets Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, not Precise shot, but I get the point. I can probably make due without far shot to begin with, possibly.

It's a prereq for Invisible Blade. It's also a decent feat for someone throwing daggers.

Invisible Blade/Master Thrower is a "classic CO build". I just took it and added a splash of sword sage, targeteer, and marrulurk. I think it looks awesome. If I get a chance, I'll probably play one of these myself one day.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Just take the build you planned on, and use Shuriken combined with a Wand of Magic Weapon for when you need to  beat DR

Sure, somewhat lower base weapon damage, but that doesn't really matter with a SA build...


Seems like the simplest solution to me

[PhaedrusXY]

Just take the build you planned on, and use Shuriken combined with a Wand of Magic Weapon for when you need to  beat SR

Are those Shadow Hand weapons, though? He'll lose Dex to damage once using them, if not. It's not crippling of course.

I also don't see that the barbarian level is doing much if he isn't planning on meleeing regularly. If he only needs to melee occasionally, he could just get a Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, and later a Belt of Battle, to get into position to deliver a full attack. He doesn't actually need Pounce, as he isn't going for a charge-multiplier build. He could also use Tumble with those, and I don't think you can normally tumble while charging, but I could be wrong.

And the rogue costs a point of BAB compared to Invisible Blade. Of course, it grants trapfinding as well, and IB requires a feat, so it's a tossup.

[bearsarebrown]

shadow blade only works on melee.
barbarian level is for whirling frenzy for a free attack.

[PhaedrusXY]

shadow blade only works on melee.
barbarian level is for whirling frenzy for a free attack.

Whoops. Missed that. Oh yeah... I think I suggested the barbarian, didn't I?   The build I posted does a bit less damage, also, as I forgot SH was melee only...  Ok, never mind.  

Using daggers does save you from having to take Wpn Focus for shuriken, or skiprocks, to get Dex to dmg, though.

I swear there were throwing daggers that counted as ammunition in some book or another... I'll see if I can find them again...


Edit: How about this as a build?
RHD 3/Ftr 1/SS 1/Bbn 1/MT 1/SS +1/Rog 3/Inv Bld 1

That way you start out with Wpn Focus for free with daggers and a few SS maneuvers, including the boost that lets you turn invisible for a round. You'll get your whirling frenzy on next level for another attack, and get rogue in near the end when we might need some trapfinding. Finish off with IB1 for another +1d6 SA. It's very similar to Bowen's, but with IB as the last level and moving the first level of SS to benefit from it earlier for prereqs and getting SA damage.

[VennDygrem]

shadow blade only works on melee.
barbarian level is for whirling frenzy for a free attack.

Whoops. Missed that. Oh yeah... I think I suggested the barbarian, didn't I?   The build I posted does a bit less damage, also, as I forgot SH was melee only...  Ok, never mind.  

Using daggers does save you from having to take Wpn Focus for shuriken, or skiprocks, to get Dex to dmg, though.

I swear there were throwing daggers that counted as ammunition in some book or another... I'll see if I can find them again...


Edit: How about this as a build?
RHD 3/Ftr 1/SS 1/Bbn 1/MT 1/SS +1/Rog 3/Inv Bld 1

That way you start out with Wpn Focus for free with daggers and a few SS maneuvers, including the boost that lets you turn invisible for a round. You'll get your whirling frenzy on next level for another attack, and get rogue in near the end when we might need some trapfinding. Finish off with IB1 for another +1d6 SA. It's very similar to Bowen's, but with IB as the last level and moving the first level of SS to benefit from it earlier for prereqs and getting SA damage.

I like it. I was planning on swapping out that last level of Targetteer anyway, so this is a good progression. I'll work on it all when I get back from classes today.

[VennDygrem]

So taking swordsage at this level frees up a feat. Should I just get Far Shot out of the way (keeping in mind I've already got Gauntlets of Extended Range on my equipment list right now), or not bother with it until later? I could take Shadow Blade now, or Craven, or Darkstalker. I'll be retraining one of my feats at Master Thrower 1, so I should be able to get all my feats in fairly easily (actually, more-so than before!). Actually, is Darkstalker even worth it? I doubt it will come up against hobgoblins, but some other beasties might have scent, and if there are dragons it might be useful to hide from their blindsense. But it'll still be fairly situational. There might be (likely are) other feats that would be more appropriate.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Yeah, there will be a few 'boss' monsters/NPCs with Blindsense or something similar, not that many though...

Ow, and not sure if it matters for Darkstalker, haven't looked that feat up in quite some time, but mounts/random monsters etc. will ofcourse be likely to have scent.

[PhaedrusXY]

So taking swordsage at this level frees up a feat. Should I just get Far Shot out of the way (keeping in mind I've already got Gauntlets of Extended Range on my equipment list right now), or not bother with it until later?

Don't forget that feycrafted weapons act as pseudo-Weapon Finesse. So unless you need that as a prereq, you can get by without taking that, also.

I could take Shadow Blade now, or Craven, or Darkstalker. I'll be retraining one of my feats at Master Thrower 1, so I should be able to get all my feats in fairly easily (actually, more-so than before!). Actually, is Darkstalker even worth it? I doubt it will come up against hobgoblins, but some other beasties might have scent, and if there are dragons it might be useful to hide from their blindsense. But it'll still be fairly situational. There might be (likely are) other feats that would be more appropriate.

I'd say Craven or Darkstalker, and would favor Craven slightly, since it will always be beneficial while Darkstalker is a lot more situational. You can always take Darkstalker later. Of course, the benefit from Craven is better at higher levels, also. So there is that argument... Hmm...

[PhaedrusXY]

Ok... because I can't stop monkeying around... I was thinking of an alternate character that actually progresses casting, and isn't a deformed mutant. We'll call this my backup for now. What do you guys think of this?

desert dwarf
+2 con, -2 dex

mineral warrior
+2 Strength, +4 Con, -2 Int (minimum 1), -2 Wis, -2 Cha

total: +2str, -2dex, +6con, -2 int/wis/cha

str 16 (14+2) (6)
con 22 (14+6)(6)
dex 14 (14-2+2 item)(6)
int 10 (12-2) (4)
wis 14 (15-2+1lvl) (8)
cha 12 (14-2)(6)


Clr 4/Crus1/PrPal3/RKV4
Gets Thicket of Blades at 8th level (when he takes his first RKV level), and loses 3 levels of spellcasting, eventually getting 5th level spells. It also has all the paladin spells added to its list, a special mount, and can take Improved Crit (Falchion) at 9th. Final IL is 8. Ironically, due to starting out with a higher IL when it takes its first crusader level, it will have better maneuvers than Flumph...

Flaws: Vulnerable (-1AC)?, Shaky (-2 ranged)
Traits: Aggressive (+2 init, -1 AC)

Feats:
Stand Still (1), Martial Study (to qualify for Stone Power. Retrained to Mounted Combat at 5th.)(flaw1), Stone Power (flaw2)
Combat Reflexes (3)
Mounted Combat (retrained from Martial Study at 5th)
Battle Blessing (6)
Tortured Soul (bonus): Good version of Willing Deformity (see below)
Deformity: Tall (bonus) Increase reach, -1 AC.

Item: Gloves of Dexterity +2, Falchion (because Bless Weapon is nice, and I'm sick of using guisarmes...), Corsair's Eyepatch (3xday Blindfight for 1 min or See Invisible for 1 rnd, 3,000 gp, MiC), Least Weapon Crystal of Revelation (reveals struck invisible creature for 1 round), Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (500 gp, move as a swift action 1xday)

Wish List: Faithful Avenger?

Notable racial boons: +3 na, +4 dodge vs. dragons, +1 to hit reptiles, DR 8/adam, burrow

Earth and Animal Devotion (and Knowledge, if I use CCleric with the second one)

Alternative: Clr 3 (cloistered or not)/Crusader 1/Church Inquisitor 3/RKV5
Loses the paladin spells, but saves a feat (Mounted Combat). I don't remember what the 3rd level of Church Inquisitor grants, as I don't have my CDiv handy.

These will still be "lockdown" melee combatants, but will be able to buff more (themselves and the party), and fulfill the "cleric role" with restorations and the like. They'll need to acquire +4 wisdom items eventually to reach their full spellcasting capacity.

And yeah... I know I said I didn't want to play a caster... but it is hard to resist the temptation of power.

[VennDygrem]

I don't know, buffs are mighty handy.

Also, Church Inquisitor 3 gives Pierce Illusion, allowing you to save vs. illusions and disguises spells without having to interact with them. Possibly not as useful in this game, I'm not sure.

Hmm, I hate how 3.5 Darkness is worded. Would it still be worthwhile for me to pick up a Dark Lantern (ToM 156)? Would I still be hidden (via Darkhidden) within its "Shadowy Illumination" or would that be totally useless?