Author Topic: Marrulurk- Gaining as many attacks with as much bonus damage as possible [3.5]  (Read 17687 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Hmm, I know Dark Lantern is a prestige class, but I could have sworn there was an item that does what that sounds like (a lantern that sheds darkness instead of light). Or maybe I'm just crazy.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
3.5 Darkness is a piece of crap, anyway. They should call it Dimness. As written, if you cast it in an area of natural darkness, it will actually make it brighter.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Gilfanon

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Hmm, I know Dark Lantern is a prestige class, but I could have sworn there was an item that does what that sounds like (a lantern that sheds darkness instead of light). Or maybe I'm just crazy.

You are thinking of the aptly named Dark Lantern, which is in Tome of Magic, page 156.  For 2,000 gold, as a full-round action, you can light the dark lantern as you would a regular lantern, and it provides shadowy illumination out to 60 feet.

Gilfanon

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 43
Hmm, I know Dark Lantern is a prestige class, but I could have sworn there was an item that does what that sounds like (a lantern that sheds darkness instead of light). Or maybe I'm just crazy.

You are thinking of the aptly named Dark Lantern, which is in Tome of Magic, page 156.  For 2,000 gold, you can light the dark lantern as a full round action, and it provides shadowy illumination out to 60 feet.

VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Well I'll be invisible at night, and I'll probably max out Move Silently, so I should be all but undetectable at night. The issue is we can't guarantee all nighttime encounters. Plus, invisibility only removes their dex bonus to ac, it doesn't render them flatfooted. So, I can probably manage to be invisible to most enemies a good amount of the time, but I can't reliably catch them flat-footed...
Hmm, I know Dark Lantern is a prestige class, but I could have sworn there was an item that does what that sounds like (a lantern that sheds darkness instead of light). Or maybe I'm just crazy.

You are thinking of the aptly named Dark Lantern, which is in Tome of Magic, page 156.  For 2,000 gold, you can light the dark lantern as a full round action, and it provides shadowy illumination out to 60 feet.


thanks! that's just what I was looking for.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Wait, I forgot about the 'type pyramid'! I do have it. good.
There is no such thing as a type period in 3.5
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Wait, I forgot about the 'type pyramid'! I do have it. good.
There is no such thing as a type period in 3.5

It'll still work because of the order of my templates.
[spoiler]Does anything in 3.5 negate the pyramid or are you just saying that because it's in a 3.0 book?

I think you're right either way but for the sake of understanding template stacking better...[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Wait, I forgot about the 'type pyramid'! I do have it. good.
There is no such thing as a type period in 3.5

It'll still work because of the order of my templates.
[spoiler]Does anything in 3.5 negate the pyramid or are you just saying that because it's in a 3.0 book?

I think you're right either way but for the sake of understanding template stacking better...[/spoiler]
[spoiler]3.5 core books deal with templates.  They ignore the "type pyramid".

Also, the type pyramid is really really dumb.  Period.

Also, specific overrides general, so every template that say they change something of type X into type Y overrides it (like incarnate construct).  So it would only have an effect on templates that didn't have specific text... which don't change type.  [/spoiler]
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 05:12:41 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
[spoiler]Oh that makes a lot of sense. That still leaves me an Outsider, so I'm happy.[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Hmm, if only I could cast Distract Assailant at-will. :P


VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Hmm, a single level dip of Marshal somewhere could get me (and allies) +cha to damage when flanking, or at least to dex skills/checks and initiative.

However, if I'm getting SA through flanking, then I don't get the Targetteer bonus (as it stipulates you get it when shooting an enemy).

Also, anyone have suggestions for any particularly good exotic ranged weapons to gain proficiency in via Targetteer? I get two, apparently. I suppose Greatbow makes sense, or some exotic crossbow (though I don't want to worry about load time).

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Also, anyone have suggestions for any particularly good exotic ranged weapons to gain proficiency in via Targetteer? I get two, apparently. I suppose Greatbow makes sense, or some exotic crossbow (though I don't want to worry about load time).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#crossbowRepeating  :D

Buy the time you need more shots, you can upgrade to the one that Marlowe has in my Pun-Pun game. Of course, if there is no reason to go with a x-bow over a bow, go with the bow...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Ok, so the classes that have been suggested to make the most out of this build are:
Targetteer/Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter
[spoiler]Pros:
d10 HD
Full BAB
Free Exotic Ranged Weapon proficiency
Vital Aim - Dex to damage replaces Str
+2 Init
+dex bonus damage vs. flat-footed foes

Cons:
Dex to damage only applies to weapons that "shoot," RAW --- RAI might suggest any ranged attack)
[/spoiler]

Whirling Frenzy Barbarian
[spoiler]Pros:
d12 HD
Full BAB
+1 Attack per round

Cons:
All attacks in frenzy round are at -2, which stacks with Rapid Shot penalty
Whirling Frenzy is only 1/day with a 1 lvl dip. To use it all day long I'll need to take Extra Rage 1-2 times
[/spoiler]

Binder 1
[spoiler]
Pros:
Malphas - Invisibility at-will as full-round action
Bird's Eye Viewing
+1d6 Sudden Strike damage

Naberius - Naberius's Skills: Use a number of skills untrained (UMD, Iajutsu Focus)
Disguise Self at-will
Faster ability healing
No extra feat needed to bind.

Cons:
1-level dip requires Improved Binding feat to get Malphas, in an already feat-starved build
3/4 BAB, loss of one pt. of AB in a 1-level dip[/spoiler]

Swordsage 2
[spoiler]
Pros:
Maneuvers and stances! Assassin's Stance for +2d6 SA damage!
+Wis to AC at 2nd level
Other class levels and HD count as half IL for determining level of maneuvers available (but first stance must be 1st level)

Cons:
3/4 BAB means loss of one more point of attack bonus
[/spoiler]

Swashbuckler 3
[spoiler]Pros:
Full BAB
d10 HD
Free Weapon Finesse feat
At level 3, +int to damage w/ light or finessable weapons (good for melee)

Cons:
3 level investment
Int bonus might not be enough to be worth it[/spoiler]

Marshal 1
[spoiler]
Pros:
One level dip gets +cha  bonus on one of several options; Best options- Cha bonus to damage against flanked foes; Cha bonus to dex checks/skills and initiative

Con:
3/4 BAB means loss of 1 more point of attack bonus[/spoiler]

Master Thrower
[spoiler]Pros:
Full BAB
Free Quick Draw feat
Palm Throw - two attacks per thrown weapon as an attack action. Combine with Whirling Frenzy, Rapid Shot, Haste, and mostly full BAB classes for 6 attacks per round with two thrown weapons apiece for a max of 12 attacks/round.
Other Thrown Weapon Tricks, like
Cons:
Vital Aim may not apply to thrown weapons. Otherwise, none really.[/spoiler]

So clearly not all of these are good options together in the same build. I'll probably be able to combine them most efficiently by sometime tomorrow.

I'm mostly just posting the above info for my own reference to figure things out.
--------------------
Let's see...
Marralurk 3/Swashbuckler 1/Targetteer Fighter 1/Master Thrower 1/Swordsage 2/Barbarian 1 (Whirling Frenzy)/X 3
That's what I've got so far. Might add two more levels of Swashbuckler for the Int to damage, but otherwise it might not be worthwhile. The first level's pretty much to get me Weapon finesse so I can hit better with my attacks.
I'll edit this some more in the morning once I've gotten some sleep. :P
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 05:37:28 AM by VennDygrem »

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
SA +2d6
Targetteer 1 x Vital Aim; Hit-and-Run Tactics
Rogue 1 x SA +1d6Whirling Frenzy; Buy off LA+1
Master Thrower 1 x Palm Throw
Rogue 2 x Evasion
Rogue 3 x SA +1d6Arrow Swarm

6d6 Sneak Attack damage isn't bad...


That is, assuming you still want to use throwing weapons...
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 10:06:39 AM by BowenSilverclaw »
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

Ed-Zero

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
The thing about ring of the darkhidden, while it's great and all, is that anyone in your party with darkvision won't be able to see whoever's wearing it too. Works both ways. Oh, that and you can't tell colors. So GM help you if you run into a color coded trap

VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Well, I'm not looking to optimize trapfinding, and I can take the ring off if I need to.
Plus, who said I want my party to see where I am. :P

Seriously though, they only won't be able to see me when it's dark. If there's a light source then they can see me just fine.

@Bowen: Good points. Though, the build you present gets BAB 10, thus losing the extra attack I'd hoped to get by 12th level. Not that I'd be worried much about my damage output. :D

The original reason I was going with Swashbuckler was to gain Int mod to damage at 3rd class level, but that's an unnecessary investment.
So, would TWF actually help if I'm using thrown weapons? Also, Arrow Swarm sounds nice, but -5 to attack on top of the -2 from Whirling Frenzy and -2 from Rapid Shot is a total of -9. That's way too big of a penalty to take, unless I was making touch attacks. I need to be offsetting the attack penalties from WF and RS, not adding to them.
--
However, I just read up on the dark lantern, and apparently it sheds shadowy illumination, not darkness. That puts me right back at the beginning, having to find some way to get hidden or invisible or covered in darkness. Guess I'll need that wand of No Light after all... :/

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Yeah, I misremembered the Arrow Swarm penalty as -2 instead of -5. I agree that it isn't worth taking with that big of a penalty.

And yes, TWF is definitely worth it. Double your number attacks for only a -2, yes please :)


EDIT: Need to swap a feat for Quick Draw though, if you go with thrown weapons. Completely forgot about that...

EDIT2: And yes, not getting BAB 11 sucks, but I couldn't find any way without giving up some SA dice unless you want to drop Hit-and-Run and Targetteer and go with SA Fighter instead, which frankly, sucks...

EDIT3: Just get a Wand of Divine Power and a Wand of Heroics and invest in UMD to get BAB 12 and Greater TWF at the end of the campaign :P
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 03:36:41 PM by BowenSilverclaw »
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Master Thrower 1 gets Quick draw. Unfortunately, I can't take that class right away, and there is no listing for anything if you already have Quick Draw. I suppose I could always retrain it once I take that level, however.

But yes, I need that feat. If you let me boost my affiliation score up to at least 24 via my backstory, I can get a bonus Fighter feat. I'd even forego the bonus magic item of 30,000 gp since that's really unbalancing at this level.

I really hate that dark lantern now.  :lmao Honestly, I just love the idea of having a cloud of darkness around me that I can attack out of and which even enemies with darkvision can't see me in. I wish we could treat No Light like the equivalent of Light and thus be castable on an object, because then it becomes so much more useful (and it makes sense!). And as we all know, the Darkness spell sucks.

Hm... now that I think about it, Warlock 1 could give me Darkness at-will...
Could that be worth it? I suppose that that way if I run out of daggers, I can still make sneak attacks via a single eldritch blast in a round. Not optimal, but could be really useful in a pinch. If I run out of daggers as it is, I'd have no choice but to enter melee. Plus EB is a touch attack, making it that much more useful (only 1 ever in a round, which sucks, but if you run out of other options then who cares?). Actually, DfA would be better in that case since it always hits... Actually, breath weapons aren't ranged attacks, technically, so I don't think targetteer bonuses would apply. Actually, it might, but it would require a definitive ruling. Still can't use Dead Eye with either of them, but any other sneak attack damage would apply. Plus I could combine either with whirling frenzy and rapid shot to add thrown dagger attacks to rounds I use EB/Breath-weapon attacks.

"Oh shit, look at that cloud of darkness, there's gotta be an enemy in there! But where, I can't see them! OH SHIT THERE'S FIRE COMIN' OUTTA THERE! FFFFFFFFFFFFU.... *thwip* OH SHIT NOW I'M ON FIRE AND THERE'S A DAGGER STICKING OUT OF MY EYE! FFFFFFFFF... "  :lmao


bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Breath Weapons aren't attacks. They're effects. You're right about it not working. I could pick Darkness as one of my Invocations, or Fog Cloud.

I have two known right now and I can't decide what the second one should be. The first is the one that lets me make ya'll immune to my Breath. The second is either;
-Draconic Knowledge (+6 to all Knowledge)
-That magic one (unlimited Detect Magic + Identify)
-And now Darkness


BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Master Thrower 1 gets Quick draw. Unfortunately, I can't take that class right away, and there is no listing for anything if you already have Quick Draw. I suppose I could always retrain it once I take that level, however.
Sounds like a decent plan :)

Quote
But yes, I need that feat. If you let me boost my affiliation score up to at least 24 via my backstory, I can get a bonus Fighter feat. I'd even forego the bonus magic item of 30,000 gp since that's really unbalancing at this level.
Deal. Consider it done :)

Quote
Hm... now that I think about it, Warlock 1 could give me Darkness at-will...
Could that be worth it? I suppose that that way if I run out of daggers, I can still make sneak attacks via a single eldritch blast in a round. Not optimal, but could be really useful in a pinch. If I run out of daggers as it is, I'd have no choice but to enter melee. Plus EB is a touch attack, making it that much more useful (only 1 ever in a round, which sucks, but if you run out of other options then who cares?).

IIRC there's an item (a gauntlet) in MIC which gives unlimited daggers, so no need to waste a level on Warlock.

Quote
Actually, DfA would be better in that case since it always hits... Actually, breath weapons aren't ranged attacks, technically, so I don't think targetteer bonuses would apply. Actually, it might, but it would require a definitive ruling. Still can't use Dead Eye with either of them, but any other sneak attack damage would apply. Plus I could combine either with whirling frenzy and rapid shot to add thrown dagger attacks to rounds I use EB/Breath-weapon attacks.

No SA etc. with Breath Weapons, since they don't have an attack roll. Also, both Breath Weapon and EB are a standard action, so I don't really see an easy way to combine them with regular attacks.


"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol