Author Topic: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions  (Read 4944 times)

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Black Knight

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More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« on: January 20, 2010, 05:23:22 PM »
My DM and I have been running around this particular topic.

Question 1:
Take for example the Bearded Devil, which has an Infernal Wound (su) ability.
If you Shapechange into a Bearded Devil, you get their supernatural abilities (along with other goodies).  My DM says that you get the gear of the creature that you shape into, so you would get the glaive weapon that they are listed as possessing in the MM.

I don't understand where he's getting that you get the gear of the creature.

Can anyone shed some light on where he's getting this idea?  And yes, I've already talked to the DM about his interpretation.  That was less than illuminating.  He says 'because they do'.

Question 2:
I'm sure this has been covered before, but didn't really see a majority opinion. 
If you change into a creature that has a spell casting ability, by RAW can you cast those spells?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 05:25:12 PM »
You don't get the gear, unless the gear itself is listed as a Supernatural ability or something weird, like the Balor's vorpal sword.
[spoiler]
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bearsarebrown

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2010, 05:25:53 PM »
Question 2:
I'm sure this has been covered before, but didn't really see a majority opinion. 
If you change into a creature that has a spell casting ability, by RAW can you cast those spells?

Yes. MM5 explicitly states this IIRC.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 05:34:39 PM »
Question 2:
I'm sure this has been covered before, but didn't really see a majority opinion. 
If you change into a creature that has a spell casting ability, by RAW can you cast those spells?

Yes. MM5 explicitly states this IIRC.
There is one example creature (IIRC), out of all the books, that has spellcasting listed as an Extraordinary ability. In all the other example creatures, it is not labeled as such. So make of that what you will... I'd argue that the one creature is in error, rather than all the others... Allowing it to grant spellcasting is stupendously broken, and regardless of the RAW, should never be allowed anywhere, IMO. Those damn spells are already overpowered enough without that crap.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 05:41:23 PM »
Actually two creatures, the hobgoblin warsoul and the kou-toa exalted whip. And I think those are the only creatures in that book with racial spellcasting.

Hallack

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 05:54:13 PM »
My DM and I have been running around this particular topic.

Question 1:
Take for example the Bearded Devil, which has an Infernal Wound (su) ability.
If you Shapechange into a Bearded Devil, you get their supernatural abilities (along with other goodies).  My DM says that you get the gear of the creature that you shape into, so you would get the glaive weapon that they are listed as possessing in the MM.

I don't understand where he's getting that you get the gear of the creature.

Can anyone shed some light on where he's getting this idea?  And yes, I've already talked to the DM about his interpretation.  That was less than illuminating.  He says 'because they do'.

Question 2:
I'm sure this has been covered before, but didn't really see a majority opinion. 
If you change into a creature that has a spell casting ability, by RAW can you cast those spells?

Question 1:
Well, as the DM mentioned... in particular I said a Balor for example would get his weapons as they are a manifestation of himself IIRC.  I did say so for the Bearded Devil you brought up too but I was wrong but it was still worth it to get you going :P

Question 2:
You need to specify what type of change as that is a big factor in the yes or no of spell casting abilities.
I'm pretty sure that if you Shapechange into a Solar, you get it's Cleric casting ability (Very reasonable for a DM to require to you have rested and spend time to prepare to get them though).

I don't think you get casting with Polymorph though ...snip from SRD Polymorph
Quote
It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

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nijineko

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2010, 06:15:08 PM »
have you looked at the shapechanging comparison thread? it shows what you gain and lose with every form and kind of shapechanging in d&d. there are about 9 variants. in some you gain ex and/or su, in others you don't. unless the weapon/gear/item itself is listed as an (ex/sp/su) ability, there is no way you should get the item in question.
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Black Knight

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2010, 07:38:34 PM »
After taking a look at MMV on Page 219, I found the following:
Quote
Spells: Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

The exceptions listed there don't apply to this discussion.

Other entries in this glossary of terms for MMV lists whether it is a Supernatural or Extraordinary ability.  The Spells entry has nothing listed, implying that it is neither.

Polymorph doesn't have a long enough duration in order to prepare your spells for the day, so spellcasting is out for it, regardless.

Shapechange does have a long enough duration, and for the 2 creatures that have Wizard spell casting ability as Extraordinary Racial abilities, I'd have to say that it works for them.  But you'd have to prepare them, since they have to follow the same spellcasting rules, which takes 1 hour to do so.  Which means that you'd also have to have a spellbook to prepare them from.  And even then, you'd still need to have any necessary spell components to cast them.

The Arkamoi are Sorcerers so no spellbook needed for them...   and the Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip are clerics, so no spellbook for them either... but another problem would be for them:  what diety would grant spells to a non-believer, so I think a DM could rule that one out (unless the caster is a follower of that specific diety).

@nijineko ----   my thought is that you get the ability of the ex/sp/su but in order to use it, you must already have or obtain the gear that it is used in conjunction with it.   And yes, I've looked at the shapechanging comparison thread, but spells listed there only dealt with the caster's spell ability and not the spell ability of the creature.

@PhaedrusXY  ---- ok, so you'd get the Balor's Vorpal Sword because the sword itself is the supernatural ability, but not the Flaming Whip, even though a Balor has a special Entangle(Ex) ability that uses that whip, right?

@Hallack ---- I don't think you get the spell casting ability of the Solar at all.

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nijineko

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 04:21:03 AM »
ah. inborn abilities to cast spells are spell-like abilities unless specified otherwise. i do believe that you never gain spell-like abilities through shapechanging, but i'll have to check. ...time passes.... i'm not finding anything that supports gaining spell-likes via shapechanging. however, i do note the difference between spell-likes, and actual virtual/racial casting levels. i seem to recall some discussion about shapeshifting into a spellweaver and gaining it's unique multi-spell casting ability, however i think that it also came out that you would have to be a caster to do so.

generally speaking, unless specified otherwise, i've noted that the shapechanging seems to favor keeping things based on mind, consequently not gaining things based on mind from assumed forms. i'll keep poking around the raw and see if i spot anything.

i do believe that divine casters do not have to draw from a specific deity. faith in a principle or two is apparently enough.
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JaronK

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 06:55:03 AM »
On spells, here's all the data I've got.  Anyone else can feel free to add in anything I might have missed.

First off, Page 180 of the PHB states what the four types of abilities are... Sp, Su, Ex, and Na.  Na explicitly states that any ability that's not one of the first three is natural, so it's impossible for any ability to not be one of the four ability types.  Both Sp and Su abilities are described by how they are different from being spells, making it clear that spellcasting is neither Sp nor Su.  Since Shapechange and Polymorph both grant Natural and Extraordinary Special Attacks and spells are a Special Attack (they're always listed that way), those spells must grant spellcasting if the creature has it.

As to whether spells are Ex or Na, the entries in MMV are the only ones to define them, and they say Ex.  Note that well spells themselves are obviously magical, the ability to cast spells might not be (otherwise spells like Invoke Magic wouldn't work because you wouldn't have spellcasting at all when you entered an antimagic field), so the fact that Ex abilities state they're not magical seems to be okay.  If it weren't for the MMV entries I would have said spells are Natural, but then again Natural abilities are things innate to a creature and spellcasting can be either innate or learned (as in the case of class levels granting spells).  Also, for balance reasons it's best if spells are Ex and not Natural, since Alter Self grants Natural abilities (at least according to the rules of the game article on the subject).  So, I guess it's better that Alter Self doesn't do it.  But either way, Polymorph and its big brother definitely grant spells.

Note that by no means am I saying they should grant spells.  It's pretty freaking broken.  Of course, you can always do as I do in games I run and just hack out the entire Polymorph line.  That solves the problem nicely.  But by RAW, they do grant spellcasting, so Shapechanging into a Solar gives you 20th level Cleric casting and Shapechanging into a Black Etherguant gives you 17th level Wizard casting.  You still have to memorize spells of course once you assume those forms, but Shapechange can be made to last long enough for that to work especially if Extended (or, horrifically, Persisted).

JaronK
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 06:57:19 AM by JaronK »

telehax

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 07:08:06 AM »
Question 1:
Well, as the DM mentioned... in particular I said a Balor for example would get his weapons as they are a manifestation of himself IIRC.  I did say so for the Bearded Devil you brought up too but I was wrong but it was still worth it to get you going :P

Though for sanity's sake you might want to rule you can polymorph with clothes on.

Black Knight

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 03:14:46 PM »
@JaronK  ---- Thanks for pointing me in this direction... see below. 

Quote
First off, Page 180 of the PHB states what the four types of abilities are... Sp, Su, Ex, and Na.  Na explicitly states that any ability that's not one of the first three is natural, so it's impossible for any ability to not be one of the four ability types.  Both Sp and Su abilities are described by how they are different from being spells, making it clear that spellcasting is neither Sp nor Su.  Since Shapechange and Polymorph both grant Natural and Extraordinary Special Attacks and spells are a Special Attack (they're always listed that way), those spells must grant spellcasting if the creature has it.

On Page 180... it says what the 4 types of Special Abilities are.  The ability to cast spells may not be a Special Ability.  Look on PHB page 24.  Spells are listed as Class Features.  Also look on PHB 141, extraordinary abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Quote
Note that well spells themselves are obviously magical, the ability to cast spells might not be
  I think you're on the right path here... the ability to cast spells isn't magical.

Quote
But either way, Polymorph and its big brother definitely grant spells.
  This is predicated on the assumption that the ability to cast spells is a Special Ability, which I'm not convinced of, just yet.  Although, I will say that if it is then I totally agree with your logic chain.

Quote
Note that by no means am I saying they should grant spells.  It's pretty freaking broken.
  Again, I'm in total agreement here.   :D

Quote
Of course, you can always do as I do in games I run and just hack out the entire Polymorph line.
  Most of my players don't even want to learn Polymorph, (yeah, I know that's crazy) and the only caster to recently use Shapechange is stuck on changing into a Dragon and getting smacked around.  The last time he did that he leaped/flew outside the Repulsion field the Cleric was putting out, breathed on the few spiders within his breath weapon range and all the angry, ticked off spiders that couldn't get to anyone else, swarmed him to death in one round.  It was really sad.




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PhaedrusXY

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 03:19:05 PM »
The ability to cast spells (as a class) is listed under the Spell-like Ability description in the SRD, and as such I think they should be treated as SLAs.

Quote
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer.
It only mentions sorcerer specifically, but it should probably be generalized to cover them all...
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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Hallack

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 12:00:29 PM »
That language from the SRD does not seem to indicate spell casting is a spell-like even in the example given in the SRD.

I just says that some listed creatures cast spells as a sorcerer does (without specifically having class levels) and then indicates that some of those same creatures actually have the casting ability and then some spell-likes as well.  There seems to be a distinction made between the casting as a sorcerer and the spell-likes even in that text.

Or so I read.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 12:06:07 PM »
I figured since it was listed under Spell-like Abilities, then it would be categorized as a spell-like ability.
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

reddir

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2010, 03:09:03 PM »
Taking direction from JaronK's and Black Knight's posts, and responding:

On Page 180... it says what the 4 types of Special Abilities are.  The ability to cast spells may not be a Special Ability.  

More discussion on this point seems warranted. This seems to be the crux of any discussion.

...and spells are a Special Attack (they're always listed that way)...

So, is it fair to consider all "Specials" in a stat block, including Special Attacks and Special Qualities, to be a Special Ability?

Look on PHB page 24.  Spells are listed as Class Features.

Class Features explicitly include Feats and SLA and SU abilities, and other Class Features such as the Rangers "Favored Enemy" is Ex. I don't think its an exclusive category, just a gathering of disparate abilities.

Also look on PHB 141, extraordinary abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The Ex Ability section on page 180 also has this - "These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity."

This seems to leave only Natural Ability in which to categorize spells-casting.....unless the 'ability to cast a spell' is considered different from the casting itself.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:22:23 PM by reddir »

Beltendu

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Re: More Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange questions
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2010, 03:44:32 PM »
I'm not near my books, so I can't prove this one way or another - but that text doesn't entirely exclude spells from the "Extraordinary" category.  What with D20 being an exception based rule set, they could be a specific exception ("this particular ex ability can be interrupted") to the generic rule ("ex abilities can't be interrupted").

Though honestly, I'd be tempted to treat them as an entirely separate category, making it 5 categories (Ex, spell like, su, na, and casting).  That or maybe look at particular creatures and try to determine if spellcasting for that creature is some innate ability, or a learned one, and base my decision on that.