Eldritch Disciple/Hellfire Ur-lock Eldritch Blast Debunked!

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

So one build shown to me here was that of an Ur-Priest/Hellfire Warlock Eldritch Disciple.

The logic went that since Eldritch Disciple advances your invocation caster level for invocations and eldritch blast damage, that one could continue to obtain +2d6 in Hellfire Blast damage per level.  When I asked wheter the class would actually continue past the 5th and final level in the Fiendish Codex, the response I received was that it would be up to the DM, and that there wasn't a rule that specifically forbade it.

Tonight however, I came upon this sentance from the DMG, page 206: "You cannot advance the class level of a class with fewer than 10 levels beyond the maximum described for that class, regardless of the character level of the advancing character."

Oh well...

[Dictum Mortuum]

Unfortunately that doesn't apply for two reasons:

a) I think there are epic progressions for classes with fewer than 10 levels.
b.1) You don't advance the class level of the class in question; you advance the caster level.
b.2) You are a fighter and enter a prestige class that gives spells and is 5 levels long. You take practiced spellcaster in that class. Now your caster level = 5. Your class level in the 5-level prestige class, 1. Thus, caster level can be higher than your class level in the prestige. At least with this way.

[NiteCyper]

I think there are epic progressions for classes with fewer than 10 levels.

Well, it seems the OP has directly debunked that with a quote. Your words aren't quite moving.

re: point 2: Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it, it sounds familiar.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Unfortunately that doesn't apply for two reasons:

a) I think there are epic progressions for classes with fewer than 10 levels.
b.1) You don't advance the class level of the class in question; you advance the caster level.
b.2) You are a fighter and enter a prestige class that gives spells and is 5 levels long. You take practiced spellcaster in that class. Now your caster level = 5. Your class level in the 5-level prestige class, 1. Thus, caster level can be higher than your class level in the prestige. At least with this way.

This is completely mostly wrong.

The OP is completely probably correct.
a) there are NO epic progressions for PrCs with less than 10 levels (and maybe none for more)
b) 1. That is specific to the hellfire+eldritch disciple stacking which I don't care about.
    2. Advancing casting progression (or CL) and advancing class level are extremely different things.

Why does this matter? See my Illithid Savant Boostrapping thread.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Unfortunately that doesn't apply for two reasons:

a) I think there are epic progressions for classes with fewer than 10 levels.
b.1) You don't advance the class level of the class in question; you advance the caster level.
b.2) You are a fighter and enter a prestige class that gives spells and is 5 levels long. You take practiced spellcaster in that class. Now your caster level = 5. Your class level in the 5-level prestige class, 1. Thus, caster level can be higher than your class level in the prestige. At least with this way.

This is completely mostly wrong.

The OP is completely probably correct.
a) there are NO epic progressions for PrCs with less than 10 levels (and maybe none for more)
b) 1. That is specific to the hellfire+eldritch disciple stacking which I don't care about.
    2. Advancing casting progression (or CL) and advancing class level are extremely different things.

Why does this matter? See my Illithid Savant Boostrapping thread.

I don't know about a), i think i've seen the dungeonscape's trapsmith epic progression somewhere, but i'm not sure.
b1) Not it is not. It is about eldritch disciple-and-million-other-prestige-classes-specific. I don't care about hellfire warlock and i wasn't trying to defend the hellfire blast argument. I just wanted to point out that this quote debunks nothing, since you can have caster level higher than your class level. The ruling says you cannot advance *class* level, not *caster* level. And from what i remember hellfire blast deals damage according to *caster* level and thus is DM's area.
b2) Exactly what i was trying to say.

[McPoyo]

DMG came out long before any of the classes that advance class progressions as thought you were taking additional levels in that class, too. There's room to argue both ways.

[Dictum Mortuum]

DMG came out long before any of the classes that advance class progressions as thought you were taking additional levels in that class, too. There's room to argue both ways.

You mean like legacy champion? I always thought using him to advance prestige classes beyond their normal maximum was cheesy.

[McPoyo]

DMG came out long before any of the classes that advance class progressions as thought you were taking additional levels in that class, too. There's room to argue both ways.

You mean like legacy champion? I always thought using him to advance prestige classes beyond their normal maximum was cheesy.

Or Uncanny Trickster.

OR possibly bloodlines.

[Agita]

DMG came out long before any of the classes that advance class progressions as thought you were taking additional levels in that class, too. There's room to argue both ways.

You mean like legacy champion? I always thought using him to advance prestige classes beyond their normal maximum was cheesy.

Or Uncanny Trickster.

OR possibly bloodlines.

Or d) all of the above.

[Bauglir]

Neither of these advance Hellfire Blast damage, though, anyway. Bloodlines and suchlike DO work, because they advance effective class level, which if you read the Hellfire Blast ability is what the bonus damage is keyed off of (2d6 per class level).

[Dark_Juggernaut]

In Complete Arcane a Warlock's Eldritch Blast increases with warlock levels.

The Dragonfire Adept, from Dragon Magic, is a similar class with a breath weapon and invocations has a descriptor that specifically states it gains invocations, caster level, and breath weapon dice and DC with any class that increases "effective spell casting class levels".

The Edlritch Disciple in Complete Mage specifically states each level increases known invocations and caster levels "as if you had gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged..." followed by a parenthesis (this includes Eldritch Blast).

The Hellfire Warlock states "plus 2d6 points of damage per class level".

Warlock levels vs class levels terminology.  I see a bigger problem here to be honest...do "effective spellcasting levels" of Hellfire warlock even increase invocations?  For the sake of arguement:

Lets say I took levels of Wizard, then Red Wizard, and then say, Eldritch Knight, but I targeted Red Wizard with it's progression.  Can it work that way or must I target the class that originally gives spellcasting?  If you take a solid look, Hellfire Warlocks technically DON'T learn invocations on their own, meaning you could argue that an Eldritch Disciple can't even advance Hellfire Warlock since it merely advances existing Invocation use, and does not provide it.

Let's say your DM ruled it IS an invocation class you can advance with a PrC, does it's progression then forward to the original class?  If not then sure you're increasing hellfire damage, but not Invocations or Eldritch Blast dice/level/DC.

HOWEVER.  There's been a post somewhere (I'm going to look for it later) that a player asked a Dev about Practiced Spellcaster being applied to Eldritch blast.  The Dev replied that he would rule for it, seeing Eldritch Blast as something that refrences it's owners caster level.  He admitted that the exact wording wouldn't support it, but the spirit of the feat is there.  This would be supported by the advancement of Eldritch Disciple and Dragonfire Adept.

In this case, Warlock's Eldritch blast references caster level, not class level.  At this point your DM would have to make the call.  I would have to say it's referencing the "class level" of the Hellfire Warlock alone and not the Hellfire Warlock's "caster level" which is far greater due to previous Warlock levels, making both the PrC and the feat unable to apply to Hellfire Blasts.

If your DM decides to allow PrCs to be true proxy's for the classes they advance, then I would rule yes.  If they say it must be the class that originally provided the use of Invocations, then there's no way to increase Hellfire Blasts beyond 6d6.