Author Topic: The Incarnate Handbook  (Read 63933 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2010, 04:05:31 PM »
Is it just me or did chaotic Incarnates get shafted?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2010, 04:13:23 PM »
Is it just me or did chaotic Incarnates get shafted?

they're more or less required to wield a bow and take levels in Ironsoul Forgemaster, but they replace the Incarnate Weapon with Sighting Gloves. But, yeah. If anything other than the Soulborn needs fixing, the CN Incarnate needs it.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 04:56:54 PM »

snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2010, 06:09:18 PM »
Is it just me or did chaotic Incarnates get shafted?

they're more or less required to wield a bow and take levels in Ironsoul Forgemaster, but they replace the Incarnate Weapon with Sighting Gloves. But, yeah. If anything other than the Soulborn needs fixing, the CN Incarnate needs it.
I just went through and I don't think there is a single soulmeld with the Chaos descriptor (barring Incarnate Avatar and Incarnate Weapon, because they have all four).  That seems like they have the fewest choices without burning a feat on Necrocarnum.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2010, 08:34:56 PM »
person_man spotted something ... http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6970.0

I noticed that in the original thread on Gianitp.

Quote
I just went through and I don't think there is a single soulmeld with the Chaos descriptor (barring Incarnate Avatar and Incarnate Weapon, because they have all four).  That seems like they have the fewest choices without burning a feat on Necrocarnum.


Same with Lawful. Good/Evil got the love.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2010, 09:16:39 PM »
I'm trying to figure out good feat choices for a gestalt CN Soulknife 4/Incarnate 4 and mostly coming up blank.  I want to get more essentia, but I don't find the majority of the effects from the feats to be worthwhile and I can't take Extra Essentia yet.  I'm considering Knowledge Devotion (since one of the randomly determined flaws was Absent-Minded and I get 3 of the important Knowlege skills as class skills).  Is Psycarnum Blade worthwhile for this?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2010, 11:55:01 PM »
I'm trying to figure out good feat choices for a gestalt CN Soulknife 4/Incarnate 4 and mostly coming up blank.  I want to get more essentia, but I don't find the majority of the effects from the feats to be worthwhile and I can't take Extra Essentia yet.  I'm considering Knowledge Devotion (since one of the randomly determined flaws was Absent-Minded and I get 3 of the important Knowlege skills as class skills).  Is Psycarnum Blade worthwhile for this?

I said it before, swap Psychic Strike for the bonus feats in the Mind's Eye article with the PsiWar variant that replaced the Soulknife class. Bonus feats are valuable to you because you're a Ranged combatant. Only take Knowledge Devotion if you plan on not shaping the Incarnate Avatar and Sighting Gloves. Here's some Soulmelds that are worthwhile:

Crystal Helm
Airstep Sandals (Hint: Flyby Attack)
Keeneye Lenses (Spot and See Invis are useful for you)
Apparition Ribbon (take Open Throat Chakra ASAP to give yourself a panic button at the high levels)
Fellmist Robe (must-have)
Vitality Belt (useful)


I've always put Healing Soul on my Meldshapers. Even if you don't have the essentia to spare, you can buy an Essentia Helm (MiC) and max it out for a few rounds worth of healing each day (and cheat a little). Psycarnum Blade is actually pretty useful for you if you don't want to invest in Psionic Shot/Greater, because it applies to Ranged or Melee attacks equally. I do recommend taking Weapon Finesse or Zen Archery, to reduce MAD. Zen Archery is both flavorful and mechanically beneficial, as Incarnate is a partially Wis-based class.

Soulsight is a good idea, BTW.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2010, 12:41:59 AM »
I think my first feat is pre-selected to be Able Learner, since the DM is requiring Legacy Champion and I don't feel like spending 10 skill points on Knowledge (History).  I will if there's a good reason why not to take Able Learner, but it's painful nonetheless.  Azurin bonus feat I chose to be Point Blank Shot (prerequisite for everything ranged).  Psycarnum Blade looks like it will be in (most likely replacing Psychic Strike).  Maybe Psycarnum Infusion (which I can see being very nice with Healing Soul).

Is it just me or is Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Toughness not a bad combo?  Expend your psionic focus to get some temporary hp for a round?  I'd never actually invest essentia in Azure Toughness, but Psycarnum Infusion and the Essentia Helm seem like reasonable ways to use it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 12:56:41 AM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2010, 01:24:15 AM »
I think my first feat is pre-selected to be Able Learner, since the DM is requiring Legacy Champion and I don't feel like spending 10 skill points on Knowledge (History).  I will if there's a good reason why not to take Able Learner, but it's painful nonetheless.  Azurin bonus feat I chose to be Point Blank Shot (prerequisite for everything ranged).  Psycarnum Blade looks like it will be in (most likely replacing Psychic Strike).  Maybe Psycarnum Infusion (which I can see being very nice with Healing Soul).

Is it just me or is Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Toughness not a bad combo?  Expend your psionic focus to get some temporary hp for a round?  I'd never actually invest essentia in Azure Toughness, but Psycarnum Infusion and the Essentia Helm seem like reasonable ways to use it.

Educated would be a better choice (ECS). Grants all Knowledges as class skills. And Azure Toughness+Psycarnum Infusion is a decent version of Stone Power for non-Crusaders, but it works best with Crusader levels. Still, worth looking into since you want the Essentia. You probably won't use it that often though, seeing as you are a ranged character. You will need Psionic Meditation ASAP though.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2010, 04:50:23 PM »
I guess I'll be going Psycarnum Infusion and Healing Soul, actually.  I forgot that Able Learner isn't in one of the allowed sources (and for that matter,niether is Educated).  Out of combat, I should be able to heal a bit (maximum essentia capacity) each round by doing nothing else and taking 10 to regain focus, even at this low level.  Healing Soul gives me one essentia and Psycarnum Blade wil give me another.  I should have enough for now.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Person_Man

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2010, 11:36:45 PM »
Finally got around to charting when the earliest level (and ECL) chakra binds can be opened:
[spoiler]



Totem
Crown
Feet
Hands
Arms
Brow
Shoulders
Waist
Throat
Heart
Soul


Incarnate
-
2
4
4
9
9
9
14
14
16
19


Totemist
2
5
5
5
9
9
9
14
14
17
-


Soulborn
-
8
8
8
14
14
14
18
18
-
-
Open Chakra Feat
-
6
6
6
12
12
12
18
18
-
-

Ironsoul Forgemaster
-
-
-
-
4 (9)
-
8 (13)
6 (11)
-
10 (15)
-


Necrocarnate
-
req
req
req
7 (10)
7 (10)
7 (10)
8 (15)
8 (15)
11 (18)
13 (20)


Soulcaster
-
3 (8)
3 (8)
3 (8)
8 (13)
8 (13)
8 (13)
-
-
-
-

Spinemeld Warrior
-
-
-
-
7 (12)
-
-
-
-
-
-

Totem Rager
-
4 (9)
4 (9)
4 (9)
9 (14)
9 (14)
9 (14)
-
-
-
-

Soul Manifester
-
3 (8)
3 (8)
3 (8)
8 (13)
8 (13)
8 (13)
-
-
-
-
[/spoiler]

And I noticed the following:
  • Ironsoul Forgemaster gets his Waist slot 3 levels early, and as you mentioned in your OP, he also gets his Heart slot 1 level early.  He's a great choice between ECL 9-15.
  • Necrocarnate: Although he gets all of his upper level chakra binds one level late, Totemist 2/Incarnate 4/Whatever 1/Necrocarnate 13 or Totemist 5/Whatever 2/Necrocarnate 13 is the only way to open every chakra slot.  You'll still be limited to 5 chakra binds - but with the exception of the non-Evil aligned soulmelds, there's nothing in Magic of Incarnum that you can't do.  And with those Whatever levels (presumably Rogue, Factotum or something similar) you have a lot more flexibility then Incarnate 20 or Totemist 20.  I also ran the numbers on his essentia, and it's actually not that bad.  If you kill 2-3 living creatures (or find their recently dead corpses) every 24 hours, you should have no trouble keeping up with an Incarnate 20 in the essentia realm.  Throw in the temp essentia from Necrocarnum Weapon, and you only need to kill 1-2 living creatures.  Given the fact that you have chakra binds available which generally don't need essentia to be useful and a Incarnum Zombie minion running interference for you, I think it's a pretty solid high level PrC choice.
  • The Soulcaster and Soul Manifest both grant you Crown/Feet/Hands slots.  But if you go into them with Incarnate, you've already opened your Crown chakra.  So either you've wasted a potential class ability, or you can ask your DM to give you an extra chakra bind.
  • Soulcasters, Soul Manifester, and Totem Rager have to take a feat to open their Waist OR their Throat slots (can't do both without generic bonus feats from somewhere, since they require character level 18) and never get access to Heart or Soul.  Spinemeld Warrior doesn't get access to anything but the Arms slot.  IMO, this makes all of them pretty poor choices at ECL 15+.  
  • I think you should add Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel) to your PrC list.  It has 8 Skill points per level, a great Skill list, and the wacky 2/3 progression of every class ability.  For the same reason you might want to consider Legacy Champion, which has 3/4 BAB, 8/10 progression of every class level, and the interesting "all of your previous class Skills plus UMD" class list.


Akalsaris

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2010, 03:29:34 AM »
This has probably been noticed before, but there's some decent synergy going on between necrocarnate and thrallmaster. 

The main trick here is at around character level 10, since a thrallherd at that level will have about ~10-15 believers who appear magically (psionically?) each day.  Using necrocarnate, you and your thrall then spend about 15 minutes a day to kill off your believers in an unholy (unpsionic?) ritual, granting you an extra 10-15 essentia per day, which means that with your low essentia cap pretty much all of your soulmelds and feats are going to be fully charged all the time.

I came up with:

LN Azurin Psion (Telepath) 3/Incarnate 2/Soul Manifester 3/Thrallherd 1/Necrocarnate 1/Legacy Champion 10 (advancing Soul Manifester), with an end result of ML 18 (14 actual, 4 from Practiced Manifester), Meldshaper 14. 

Legacy champion isn't particularly necessary, but the basic chassis is much nicer than Soul Manifester, with d4 -> d8, 1/2 BAB -> 3/4, and 2 skills/lvl -> 4 skills/lvl.  And there are some decent psionic legacy items.

The main problem I ran into is that the build is very feat-tight, and very MAD (needs a high cha for thrallmaster, 14+ wis for inquisitor feat, high int for psion and all the knowledge skills required, high con for meldshaping, and high str or dex for any physical attacks).  I'm also not too experienced with either MoI or psionics, so I didn't know where to take the build.  Could make an archer build with zen archery maybe...

snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2010, 12:51:55 PM »
This has probably been noticed before, but there's some decent synergy going on between necrocarnate and thrallmaster. 

The main trick here is at around character level 10, since a thrallherd at that level will have about ~10-15 believers who appear magically (psionically?) each day.  Using necrocarnate, you and your thrall then spend about 15 minutes a day to kill off your believers in an unholy (unpsionic?) ritual, granting you an extra 10-15 essentia per day, which means that with your low essentia cap pretty much all of your soulmelds and feats are going to be fully charged all the time.

I came up with:

LN Azurin Psion (Telepath) 3/Incarnate 2/Soul Manifester 3/Thrallherd 1/Necrocarnate 1/Legacy Champion 10 (advancing Soul Manifester), with an end result of ML 18 (14 actual, 4 from Practiced Manifester), Meldshaper 14. 

Legacy champion isn't particularly necessary, but the basic chassis is much nicer than Soul Manifester, with d4 -> d8, 1/2 BAB -> 3/4, and 2 skills/lvl -> 4 skills/lvl.  And there are some decent psionic legacy items.

The main problem I ran into is that the build is very feat-tight, and very MAD (needs a high cha for thrallmaster, 14+ wis for inquisitor feat, high int for psion and all the knowledge skills required, high con for meldshaping, and high str or dex for any physical attacks).  I'm also not too experienced with either MoI or psionics, so I didn't know where to take the build.  Could make an archer build with zen archery maybe...
You can drop a lot of that by using Kalashtar instead of Azurin.  Since a Necrocarnate doesn't have a permananat essentia pool, the benefits of being an Azurin are lost.  Kalashtar gives the necessary manifester level and being able to manifest the correct power on its own (plus a few power points if you care).  You could go straight Incarnum classes except for the thrallherd level.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Akalsaris

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2010, 11:39:43 PM »
Ah, good tip, thanks :)  As I said, psionics aren't something I'm very familiar with, outside of grappling psywars and my old wilder character.  Interestingly enough, I'm going to be playing my first psion next week...in a 4E game :P 

snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2010, 02:48:54 PM »
You might want to mention the major synergy between Thereputic Mantle and Crusader manuvers.  Martial Spirit combines really, really well with it.  Heck, anything that heals you for hitting someone has some serious tanking synergy, including Vapiric and Wrathful Healing weapons.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2010, 05:14:03 PM »
Some updates have been made, and an Important Find for Soulcasters/Manifesters and Sapphire Hierarchs:


Quote from: Magic of Incarnum, Page 108, Binding Items to Chakras
You can bind a magic item to a chakra only if you
already have the ability to bind a soulmeld to that chakra
(from a class feature, a feat, or other special ability).


CustServ's answer to the Soulborn Handbook's question (archived thread, really old) turns out to contradict a statement in the book itself. This gives grounds to early entry methods (though actual Incarnate or Totemist levels are helpful due to Essentia and free soulmelds).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2010, 05:37:17 PM »
Sinfire any prospect of some more updates to this in the relatively near future?

I'm considering something like this as a replacement to a character that may be leaving a game within the next month or 2 and wanted to better evaluate it and look at builds before then.
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2010, 10:06:59 PM »
Sinfire any prospect of some more updates to this in the relatively near future?

I'm considering something like this as a replacement to a character that may be leaving a game within the next month or 2 and wanted to better evaluate it and look at builds before then.

Possibly. I have some free time coming up. Its just that doing the Magic Item section is a pain in the neck because there are so many variables.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2010, 12:23:35 PM »
Sinfire any prospect of some more updates to this in the relatively near future?

I'm considering something like this as a replacement to a character that may be leaving a game within the next month or 2 and wanted to better evaluate it and look at builds before then.

Possibly. I have some free time coming up. Its just that doing the Magic Item section is a pain in the neck because there are so many variables.
Yeah, the chakra bind restrictions on magic items are incredibly annoying.  Obviously the essentia helm is a good item.  If only they had made it so that it can share the crown chakra with a bound soulmeld...
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Mushroom

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Re: The Incarnate Handbook
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2010, 08:36:44 PM »
I'm trying to decide on a gestalt between Crusader and Warblade for a NE Incarnate(Vasharn worshiping elder evils for loads of feats)

Which would probably be best for a high powered campaign?