Author Topic: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric  (Read 11841 times)

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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2010, 02:44:52 AM »
Banned :P
Yeah, pretty much.

Okay, I just want to tie up some loose ends so everyone's on the same page as me (and yes GawainBS is correct on what happens to ToB classes).

ToB classes have to get ancestral weapons which harness, or release their power. Why they can't just have weapons of legacy, I don't know. I've even brought it up, but the DM hasn't given final say yet. I'm going to see if the player can't possibly get the Ancestral Relic feat at 6 HD. I'm sure it'll get denied though. :P

You CAN have familiars, companions, feats that gives them, improve them, etc. However, it's recommended that you don't. We're in the middle of a war. Food costs twice as much as anything else because there's so little of it. Not to mention inns make you pay extra because warlords and their cronies have been trashing the rooms lately. This means that not only do you have to pay money to eat, sleep, and live, but you must also do the same for your pet. That, and you must conform to all the bi-laws of the city you're in regarding animals. Say you're a ranger or urban druid, and have a wolf. It's not sleeping in the same room as you. That's not allowed. They have to get their own room. That's an extra expense. They eat. Chances are you're going to get your wolf a steak as per the PHB. You start to do that every day, that adds up. Especially at double cost. You want to hunt for you food? Well, that's splitting the party up, and that's quite dangerous. You may not come back. Not only that, it could be against hunting season to go after certain game, and you get a fine. Then there's the fact that you need a high level of Handle Animal because something might spook them, or cause them to get vicious and attack. You have to be able to calm them down, or face prosecution. And you can't have "magical" familiars until a much higher level, like elementals, and even then that's going to scare people because you're currently at war with the genasi. It's all about the research, and talking to the DM.

He's going to allow the saint for now, but I'm not holding my breath. He's already looking over every exalted feat to see what he can veto because of how "overpowered" they are. Nymph's Kiss is a definite no, even though I didn't even ask for that one. As for meeting the requirements of the sainthood, he's wanting me to sit down with him and go through Complete Champion to write out an extensive list of what I have to do and not do in order for me to get the +2 LA.

I've got him to budge on dragon feats so long as he gets a copy of the magazine, and can look it over himself to make sure there's no loopholes that I can exploit. He's already unhappy with the Improved Domain Power feat I asked for because he says it's too powerful, and is asking me to allow him to nerf it.

I'll let you guys know what happens after he and I work it out. I can't even ask you guys to help anymore because I have to build it with him there so he can go "yes" and "no" to everything. I appreciate the help you've given though.
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g2tegracer

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2010, 04:31:33 AM »
:lol :lmao

Now I have an image of "the DM" unbuckling his belt buckle and saying "C'mere boy. I'm gunna learn you sum balance."

HAHAHAHAHA  :lmao

Totally.  Here's my suggestion.  Either the summoner that was posted previously or ... tell this DM thanks but no thanks and find another group.  There is no need to have this much restriction just to tell a story.  Our campaigns are always story driven but we are at least given the freedom to make the characters we want and ... play them.

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2010, 04:45:39 AM »
In all the years I've been gaming, I've managed to find four groups. One I left due to major conflicts with the DM (we nearly threw fists), my Friday night game, this Sunday night game that I'm currently working on, and the group that no longer plays unless it's at tournaments. Believe me, I've tried. D&D pen and paper is a thing of the past for most people. It's all about D&D online or WoW, or other pen and paper games. Heck this DM makes us play board games if he feels he doesn't have enough players that night, or he's not ready.

I'm going to make this work. I don't give up. I'm bound and determined here. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to take over and do my own campaigns. Who knows?

Right now I need to win an argument with the DM for the feat Improved Domain Power. For healing, it lets you make a close range touch attack 1 per cleric level/day with your touch healing type spells. He says this is way too overpowered, and should be nerfed down to at least one per 2 cleric levels/day. Considering all the other improved domain abilities are already per 2 or per 3, I'd say this is balanced. Not only that, you're making a touch attack at 30 feet at 2nd level twice per day. That's not very much. And it's per cleric level so any multiclassing you do doesn't add to it. Nor do LAs. So a cleric 6/radiant servant 10 only gets 6 uses per day, and he says it's overpowered.

How do I win this? All I can think of is that it's still susceptible to touch attack penalties (ie using it when others are engaged in melee).

He's accepted the proposed saint feats I put before him, so that's good at least. The main one I wanted was Intuitive Strike which takes your WIS mod instead of your STR mod for melee attack (much like Weapon Finesse).
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Glutton

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2010, 04:47:09 AM »
 Honestly the campaign sounds fine and you should roll with it. It's not always about how powerful you can make your character, but how fun it is. I'm currently playing in a low magic campaign myself as a side quest, and just having +5 base attack and 40 hitpoints makes you way way more powerful than 99% of the people/things you run into. If the DM knows his stuff you'll have some fun, if he doesnt you'll all die miserabley in your second session, no big whoop.

Glutton

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2010, 04:48:20 AM »
I've got to ask- where the hell do you live that it's such a barren wasteland of D&D?

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2010, 04:50:34 AM »
if he doesnt you'll all die miserabley in your second session, no big whoop.
Well so far it's been 11 sessions so I guess he knows enough. However, I still know more than anyone and I know very little. Kind of sad, really. I do plan on rolling with it, it's just the nerfing and the house rules that are the problem. I might as well build my cleric with the core feats, and be done with it.

@ Glutton -- Brandon, MB. It's not a wasteland in March, May, and October for the tournaments, but other than that you're pretty much not going to find anything. I know people who literally only game once or twice a year, and it's only during the tournaments because there's such a lack here.
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Glutton

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2010, 04:57:15 AM »
My sympathies, I moved from 100 mile house BC to Vancouver for basically the same issues, best of luck grinding it out. The out-in-the-boonies DMs are pretty loopy. Something about cold weather and local television makes em crazy I think.

DerWille

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2010, 08:34:10 AM »
I'm going to make this work. I don't give up. I'm bound and determined here. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to take over and do my own campaigns. Who knows?

 You remind me alot of myself right here. I'm the same way. I don't give up. It took me ten years to fulfill a childhood dream, but I did. However, ask yourself, is this really worth fighting for? Is the stress of putting up with circumstances that spoil your experience less than the fun of playing this game? Is that fun worth the hassle at all? Honestly, I believe you'll have an easier time, less stress, and more fun from simply telling people that you plan on running your own game. Don't wait for if or when you'll be lucky enough to take over, just create your own.

 I sort of want to be a disclaimer up. It's not the campaign setting that bothers me much nor is it that he doesn't want powerful characters in his game. The fact that he's trying to make it realistic that there is a war going on appeals to me. I like that he takes into account that most inn keepers probably wouldn't be too happy with a polar bear sleeping in one of their rooms. It's the controlling, restricting nature that he wants to run it by. Everything has to be exactly his way. It really irked me that he went as far as to choose how old the characters will be and then placing arbitrary restrictions on the players.

 While I love the idea of a character that can spontaneously cast off of 4 different lists at any given opportunity or a character who can both fight better than a fighter and cast as a cleric awesome, it's not appropriate for a typical game. I think this whole mess could have been adverted by him saying, "I want to run a low magic war game. Let's make an agreement not to be too ridiculous on either end. Make your character and tell me what you want to do then we can decide whether it's appropriate it or not." Then let the players make their characters. If it's not 100% to the lore of the setting, that's fine. The players should be exceptions to the rules. Instead of being cooperative, as PhaedrusXY nailed it, he comes off as a demanding father.

 Anyways, rant over, on topic. While Saint is an awesome template, be careful, there are going to be some heavy strings attached to it. It's one of the problems of balancing something not by mechanics, but by flavor. He could give a lot of leeway or he could say that even a tiny slip up removes your sainthood. There's no definite ruling on what is appropriate and what is not. I'd keep it more normal and focus on summoning and crafting.

 

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2010, 11:46:13 AM »
Oh, I know about the strings on Saint. My Friday game has a saint in it right now so I'm taking lessons from him. This is why he's making a list of what I can and can't do. If I'm out of bounds, I forfeit.

And I got convinced him to let me take the Improved Domain Power feat. So yes, it is worth fighting for. If I get a victory out of anything, it's worth it.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2010, 11:53:01 AM »
I might as well build my cleric with the core feats, and be done with it.
You could do just that. Core clerics are plenty powerful, if they're built well. Most of the really broken/overpowered crap is in core, anyway. I'd pick a different deity than Pelor though, unless you fight enough undead that the Greater Turning is worth losing out on things like the Travel domain.
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McPoyo

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2010, 01:54:04 PM »
I'm still lost on the "It's greyhawk, but doesn't have any of it's deities" thing. Does he really mean "Core three sans the core pantheon"? Because that's entirely different.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

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wackodraco

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2010, 02:32:37 PM »
17 in Wisdom, 15 in charisma.
Zen Archery, take a diety that grants War Domain and has a ranged weapon you wanna use a lot as their favored weapon.
Be archer/support.
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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2010, 09:26:14 PM »
17 in Wisdom, 15 in charisma.
Zen Archery, take a diety that grants War Domain and has a ranged weapon you wanna use a lot as their favored weapon.
Be archer/support.
There is no 15 CHA. It's 10.
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wackodraco

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2010, 11:42:13 PM »
17 in Wisdom, 15 in charisma.
Zen Archery, take a diety that grants War Domain and has a ranged weapon you wanna use a lot as their favored weapon.
Be archer/support.
There is no 15 CHA. It's 10.
15 Cha would be helpful but is really unnecessary; it's for turning attempts.
The rest of my advice stands. Zen archery lets you dump everything but wis on a cleric. Maybe some dex for qualification for archer feats, but you don't need THAT many.
"Go. Hunt. Kill illithids."

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2010, 03:52:44 AM »
As far as I know I don't need any archery feats. And I don't get a lot so I'm focusing on the exalted ones so I can get saint since he's allowing it.
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wackodraco

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2010, 05:04:33 AM »
As far as I know I don't need any archery feats. And I don't get a lot so I'm focusing on the exalted ones so I can get saint since he's allowing it.
More Wis pumps makes your archery better. I stand by Zen Archery.
You may want PBS at the very least. Or see if you can acquire a magic item that grants it.
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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2010, 05:06:45 AM »
More Wis pumps makes your archery better. I stand by Zen Archery.
You may want PBS at the very least. Or see if you can acquire a magic item that grants it.
Not unlike I make it. Magic items pretty much don't exist in this world unless you create it.

I only stand behind Zen Archery if you're even going to use a bow. I'll only use a crossbow if I absolutely have to. I'm taking Intuitive Strike for the WIS bonus to melee since that's what I'll most be using, especially with the spells align and magic weapon.
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kevin_video

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How it ended with the cleric
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2010, 10:09:13 PM »
So I was given the re-roll, and I still ended up with 9 INT. That sucked hardcore, but he said he'd give me the chance to re-roll everything from scratch since those were the duskblade's stats, and everyone else rolled their own. So, I rolled up one of the most fantastic melee combatant only characters one. God that sucked. I hate AD&D stat rolling so much. :banghead 16/14/14/11/9/13. Come hell or high water I was going to get that 9 again. So I was given the same option with this class as I was the last one. Re-roll the WIS and get a max of 13, or switch with your highest stat, and gain +1 to it. I decided to just admit defeat, and became a Cloistered Cleric with 10/14/14/11/16/13. I'm still going Radiant Servant, and he's approved sainthood. He's still unsure about the duskblade coming back with the Leadership feat, but I told him that I want to survive, and that duskblade is my meat shield. He said that if I died, I can always use the duskblade as well. I don't really plan on dying, but anything can happen, right? The funny thing is I have more HP than the duskblade has.

I chose my weapons (morningstar and light crossbow), and chain shirt, but I still have to spend the rest of my money, which I guarantee won't take long at all. The problem I'm having is I'm not pack horse with my STR 10. You're pretty much confined. Basically what the DM said was that I better have a backpack that I can drop at a moment's notice. Note that bags of holding do not exist for anyone even considering suggesting that. I don't hate my stats. At least they're 32 point based this time around unlike the 31 point version the previous cleric and duskblade stats were. I just wish I at least had a 12 for STR. And yes I know all about the WIS based stat feats. I'm looking into those at 3rd and 9th. I was going to put point into INT and CHA (especially CHA for turning), but if I want those lvl 9 spells, I better start putting points into WIS. Although, from the sounds of things, it probably won't get that high.
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Black Knight

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2010, 10:33:35 PM »
If you end up making your own magic items, consider making them for a specific class or alignment.  You'll save 30% of the cost!
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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #79 on: January 20, 2010, 01:15:51 AM »
If you end up making your own magic items, consider making them for a specific class or alignment.  You'll save 30% of the cost!
I ended up having to choose between someone who makes items (to which we don't have enough time to do so because it takes 2 weeks just to make a composite longbow and we're constantly traveling) or going Saint. I chose the latter.
I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

When God gives you lemons... it's time to find a new God.

Like D&D Freakouts? Check out this 4th Ed one.