Wizard variation

[RobbyPants]

For the most part, people seem to like the Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer setup for casters.  They have enough spell slots to be playable from a low level, their spell lists (for the most part) are decent for their niche, and they're really easy to run in that you have spontaneous access to their whole list.  Now, they aren't perfect classes, but I think they're a much better baseline for casters than the core casting classes.  I'm not a big fan of prepared casters both in that they're a pain to run, and the DM has little idea on how powerful they are in that it changes from day do day.

That being said, I'm thinking of this as a thought exercise on how to create a similar version of the wizard.  At this point, I'll post a bit of a stub and flesh it out as I get feedback.


The Wizard

Hit Dice: d6
BAB: Poor (1/2)
Fort: Poor
Ref: Poor
Will: Good
Skill points per level: 2 + Int mod (x4 at 1st level)
Class skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, light crossbow, and heavy crossbow, but not with armor or shields.  A wizard can cast spells in light armor without suffering arcane spell failure if he gains proficiency.

Spellcasting: A wizard gains a number of spells per day equal to a sorcerer.  He uses Intelligence to cast his spells, which determines the maximum level of spells he can cast, any bonus spell slots he gets, and modifies the DCs of his spells.

Spellbook: * Think of something awesome and flavorful that has nothing to do with learning extra spells.  Perhaps you can use your spellbook to boost your caster level casting a spell you know by increasing the casting time to a minute. *

Familiar: You get a familiar.  Nothing new here.

Advanced Learning: * I have to be real careful about this one because it can ruin the whole point of this class. *

Bonus Feats: * Maybe.  Maybe not.  I have to see how this shapes up. *


Wizard Spell List:

Level 0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, Daze

Level 1: Alarm, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Shield, Mage Armor, Summon Monster I, Comprehend Languages, Identify, Sleep, Magic Missile, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Feather Fall, Magic Weapon

Level 2:Level 3: Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Sleet Storm, Summon Monster III, Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Wind Wall, Displacement, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Fly, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Slow

Level 4: Dimensional Anchor, Remove Curse, Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Summon Monster IV, Detect Scrying, Scrying, Confusion, Ice Storm, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Illusory Wall, Greater Invisibility, Fear, Stone Shape

Level 5: Break Enchantment, Summon Monster V, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Telepathic Bond, Hold Monster, Symbol of Sleep, Cone of Cold, Sending, Wall of Force, False Vision, Symbol of Pain, Waves of Fatigue, Overland Flight, Telekinesis

Level 6:

Level 7:

Level 8:

Level 9:

[axenome1]

Personally, I'm averse to armored spellcasting, but that's just me. A wizard can start off an encounter with Mage armor already active, by third level he can have it effectively active for most of the day with Extend spell. It's the equivalent by itself of Scale mail but without any check penalty or speed redux. Since light armor only goes up to +4 anyways without magic (Bracers of armor end up eventually filling in the gap for the casterlater on) it's really not worth the loss of the sheer breadth of the wizard spell list. Even with the increase to hit die and (not yet specified) expansion to the spell list. A wizard that can't amass a library of spells isn't much of a wizard- more like a gimped sorceror with fewer spell options, fewer spell slots, and no spontaneous casting.
Warmage/Beguiler/D.N. are favored because they have their niche, as you mentioned. Trouble is, a wizard isn't supposed to be a niche class. Wizardry implies vast learning across a breadth of knowledge. People bitch about the "sacred cow" of wizard health but honestly, a class that spends all its time poring over dusty tomes, arcane experiments, and magical creation is likely not gonna have much time left over for physical exercise or learning how to take a hit without giving up a few teeth in the process. Unless he has access to the Kage Bunshin, but that's just crazy talk. The wizard's niche is supposed to be all around utility as opposed to a beefed up focal point.

[RobbyPants]

As for the Hit Dice, I really don't care if it's d4.  1 HP on average per level (2 at 1st level) isn't a real big deal.

As for the loss in power, this is supposed to be a wizard nerf.  This isn't meant to be some ACF that you might play for fun when playing a real wizard is an option.  I mentioned that this is supposed to be taken in the context that the four core casters as we know them don't exist (or have also been nerfed).  This should be compared to the Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro for any meaningful comparison.

As for the armored casting, it's useless until the wizard actually becomes proficient which either requires multiclassing or a feat.  I threw it in to make gishes a bit easier.  A single level of fighter is like taking Spell Sword at the same time (sort of ).  I just don't think a PC should have to dump a crapton of resources into being able to wear armor and cast spells.  It's not overpowered in the least bit and it's a flavorful trope.

As for the niche, I agree with you.  The wizard has a vastly different niche than the three above-mentioned classes.  Although, I'm trying to shift that niche from "guy who converts gold pieces into a huge spell book" to "guy who doesn't specialize in one form of magic but still has a lot of overall utility".  Basically, I want him using necromancy, but I don't want him animating dead.  I want him to be able to use illusions and enchantment, but I don't want it to be all he does.  I want him to be able to blast, but I don't want it to be the only thing he does.  He can transmute things, but not Polymorph.  So, I want specialist casters to each have their specific niche, and this guy's niche is versatility.

...Well, versatility and a spellbook, but I want to change what a spellbook actually does.

[Havok4]

You should have more advanced learnings than other spontaneous fixed list classes to fit the whole versatility angle. It would be an interesting method to balance the class. It would also be cool to create more spontaneous fixed list classes based on various specializations.Currently 4 of the schools of magic are covered, illusion and enchantment in the beguiler, evocation in the warmage, and necromancy in the dread necromancer. So you could have a specialist who focuses on buffing and other self improvement spells which would cover much of transmutation and much of abjuration, a caster who specializes in summoning which could cover the rest of abjuration and most of conjuration, and finally and information gathering and debuffing class with focus on divination and transmutation.

[axenome1]

IDK. I'm still of the opinion that the problem isn't what spells he can cast, but how many he can cast overall. I've got another topic here http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6867.0 that kind of addresses the nerf issue without taking away any particular spells. Just reduces the number the wizard gets. As for converting his money into a spellbook, well... that's kind of exactly what a wizard is supposed to be doing in the first place.
Just my $0.02

[RobbyPants]

You should have more advanced learnings than other spontaneous fixed list classes to fit the whole versatility angle.  It would be an interesting method to balance the class.

I like the idea of Advanced Learning.  My concern is the wizard just picking up all the "win" spells and getting spontaneous access to them.  Realistically, the other three spontaneous classes have the same ability, although with a smaller list from which to choose.  I guess if I wanted to do this right, I'd have to also go through the effort of fixing quite a few spells so that Advanced Learning isn't so crazy awesome.

It would also be cool to create more spontaneous fixed list classes based on various specializations.Currently 4 of the schools of magic are covered, illusion and enchantment in the beguiler, evocation in the warmage, and necromancy in the dread necromancer. So you could have a specialist who focuses on buffing and other self improvement spells which would cover much of transmutation and much of abjuration, a caster who specializes in summoning which could cover the rest of abjuration and most of conjuration, and finally and information gathering and debuffing class with focus on divination and transmutation.

I agree.  I actually started something on this about a year ago, and I might be able to link it.  I was trying to figure out how to stat up a Transmuter, a Summoner, and an Oracle (Abjuration/Diviation).  I figured that'd fill out the rest.  Although, we could go even further than that if we wanted and didn't mind a billion base classes.

IDK. I'm still of the opinion that the problem isn't what spells he can cast, but how many he can cast overall.

I only half agree.  I think it's both, really.  Yes, the wizard is very powerful by being able to choose the right tool for the job given a bit of prep time.  I also think he's powerful because he can get access to any spell in the Wizard/Sorcerer list, and that's a lot to draw from.  Any enterprising player will simply pick the best spells to start with, and later fill out the book with special niche spells.  So, you assume that all wizards get to cast the best spells always.  When I started to design the spell lists, I tried to avoid two types of spells:

1) Special niche spells for other specialists.  I wanted necromancers to be the only guys who can animate dead, for example.

2) Particularly powerful spells.  I wouldn't mind adding them if the spells are fixed, but I don't want this class to be more versatile as a specialist and as powerful.  At that point, I might as well save myself the trouble and leave the wizard be.



Edit:
I found the three classes I was talking about, or at least one version of them.  At this point, it was just a spell list and I hadn't really fleshed out class features.  The formatting sucks because they keep changing how spoilers work around here.

Oracle
Summoner
Transmuter

[RobbyPants]

I added 4th and 5th level spells.

[axenome1]

It's an interesting concept, but seriously, you're better off prohibiting specific spells of a school of magic rather than saying "these are the only spells a wizard can take." Even with your expanded spell book, a wizard like this drops from tier 1 to tier 5. You just made a slightly flashier adept with no access to healing spells.

[Bozwevial]

It's an interesting concept, but seriously, you're better off prohibiting specific spells of a school of magic rather than saying "these are the only spells a wizard can take." Even with your expanded spell book, a wizard like this drops from tier 1 to tier 5. You just made a slightly flashier adept with no access to healing spells.

Tier 5? Really? I beg to differ. Even without the eventual Expanded Learning (which may be quite nice, on ne sait jamais), you still have access to quite a few decent spells.

[axenome1]

Alright, admittedly, tier 5 is an exageration. Even so, I really think that limiting the spells a wizard can learn in this fashion is way over reacting.

[RobbyPants]

It might be overreacting.  Although I was attempting this in lieu of getting rid of the wizard and sorcerer all together and replacing them with spontaneous niche casters.  Otherwise, I don't see any way the two can exist together in a balanced game at all.

If I nerf spells so the wizard isn't overpowered, then, by extension, I've nerfed very same spells the niche casters get as well.  So, the wizard and the other casters have access to the same spells, but the wizard can still take them all.  Do you see the problem with this approach?

[Havok4]

I am fairly fond of the niche casters and it might be worthwhile to really flesh out the other possibilities other niches. They also tend to be much more balanced.

[RobbyPants]

I am fairly fond of the niche casters and it might be worthwhile to really flesh out the other possibilities other niches. They also tend to be much more balanced.

That was my initial thought.  This whole thing is really just a thought experiment to see if it's even worth trying to salvage the concept of the wizard in context of these spontaneous niche casters.

I think the cleric and druid can be salvaged, but for the cleric, I'd give it a very small spell list and have a larger chunk come from domains.  This would also rely on keeping clerics from picking up lots of new domains.  As for druids, I'd consider splitting it into two classes: one that wildshapes and casts primarily animal-related buffs, and another that is pretty much a straight-up caster.  It'd just be a Wisdom-based nature niche caster.

[axenome1]

It might be overreacting.  Although I was attempting this in lieu of getting rid of the wizard and sorcerer all together and replacing them with spontaneous niche casters.  Otherwise, I don't see any way the two can exist together in a balanced game at all.

If I nerf spells so the wizard isn't overpowered, then, by extension, I've nerfed very same spells the niche casters get as well.  So, the wizard and the other casters have access to the same spells, but the wizard can still take them all.  Do you see the problem with this approach?

So to balance this... how about reducing the number of slots the wizards get in the first place? Like I was saying before.

You seem to forget that the wizard has to pay money for each and every spell he scribes in his book, putting his effective gear level far behind other members of the party. Not to mention that he has to buy each spell in scroll form first before he can even scribe it into his book. He has enormous options but his spell book is not going to be comprehensive unless you as the DM are doing something WRONG. If you want to limit the number of spells he's scribing in for free, do what I do: Reduce the number of spells he gets for free at each level to one, and he can only select spells from the PHB as free spells gotten in this fashion. Anything that isn't in the PHB is not a "common" spell; I know it's probably more work than you're interested in doing, but what I've done is go case by case in the Spell compendium and assigned each one a rarity according to my opinion of its utility and potential for bending/breaking my game. The percentile I assign is the likelihood of it being available on the open market in a metropolis, adjust likelihood downward as needed for wherever the hell the party is at. You're monkeying unnecessarily with the class by placing an arbitrary- And it is VERY arbitrary, imho- limit of which spells may be learned by the class PERIOD.

Meh. Said my piece. Not a judgement of your value at all; understand that I am giving my very honest opinion in what I have to say. This is not an attack on your person, so don't get angry at me pls. Just giving you my take on your class.

[RobbyPants]

So to balance this... how about reducing the number of slots the wizards get in the first place? Like I was saying before.

You seem to forget that the wizard has to pay money for each and every spell he scribes in his book, putting his effective gear level far behind other members of the party. Not to mention that he has to buy each spell in scroll form first before he can even scribe it into his book. He has enormous options but his spell book is not going to be comprehensive unless you as the DM are doing something WRONG.

And yet, given these restrictions, they still seem to out perform spontaneous casters once you get beyond low levels...

I'm not tring to pick a fight or be obtuse or anything, it's just that WotC didn't playtest their own game past mid levels and it shows.  Most of these classes are better balanced at low levels.  That's where the wizard's limited spell slots and funds keep him in check.  As the game progresses, it stops mattering.  The cost of new spells increases linearly per spell level, but the WBL funds increase exponentially.

If you want to limit the number of spells he's scribing in for free, do what I do: Reduce the number of spells he gets for free at each level to one, and he can only select spells from the PHB as free spells gotten in this fashion. Anything that isn't in the PHB is not a "common" spell; I know it's probably more work than you're interested in doing, but what I've done is go case by case in the Spell compendium and assigned each one a rarity according to my opinion of its utility and potential for bending/breaking my game. The percentile I assign is the likelihood of it being available on the open market in a metropolis, adjust likelihood downward as needed for wherever the hell the party is at.

As you mentioned, the problem is, none of those things really do much to stop a wizard from getting powerful; they just slow him down.

Limiting to one free spell per level just means the wizard has to spend more time and money padding his book.  As I mentioned earlier, the cost of spells is linear and WBL is exponential, so this is really only noticeable at low levels, when the wizard hasn't taken over the party yet, anyway.

Restricting them to PHB only is a limitation in the strictest sense of the word, but the PHB is full of so many "win" spells anyway that it won't meaningfully affect the wizard.  I could run a very effective wizard with PHB-only spells.

Setting rarities for non-PHB spells is meaningless unless you also change how researching spells works.  The wizard can just research any spell that exsists.

You're monkeying unnecessarily with the class by placing an arbitrary- And it is VERY arbitrary, imho- limit of which spells may be learned by the class PERIOD.

I do agree it's arbitrary.  I could get people to throw in their two cents about which spells they want in and out, and it'd still be arbitrary.  This idea was more of a thought exercise, but I'm getting the impression that a wizard and spontaneous niche casters just can't exist in the same game if I'm looking for balance.  It's not the end of the world, in that the game can still be quite fun, but a lot of people will tweak when there's not a class called "wizard" available.

[veekie]

You know, I thought of an alternative way to handle the wizard.

Give them Spell Mastery(of a sort), picking 1(2?, having 2 would mean basically the freebie spells they learn every level get thrown in) spell per level to master, they can cast these spells at their normal casting time. These are the spells that they've well, mastered, and know like the backs of their hands.
Heck, let them convert other prepared spells to recharge these(and metamagiced versions of these) as a swift action, and they get to scribe these back into their spellbooks without cost if the books are lost.

Unmastered spells require one step more time to cast, so a standard action spell becomes full round, and so on. 

Of course, pure utility spells that don't depend on cast time remain problematic, but they do still need to prepare them.

[Senevri]

Hm. It's still a preparing caster, right?
You could allow it to research the metamagic-modified versions of their known spells, and thus still gain 'infinite' spells known, while keeping the limitation in spells known. Maybe give them 'metamagic research' talent tree which gives them the ability to scribe (at cost) spells modified by metamagics, even ones which they do not have as a normal feat.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Nice necromancy there.

[RobbyPants]

Hm. It's still a preparing caster, right?

No, the whole point was he has full spontaneous access to his spell list.

I forgot I'd even done this.  I've been working lately at making quite a few other themed spontaneous casters, and have since abandoned the idea of the spontaneous generalist.

[Senevri]

Nice necromancy there.

Arise thread, from thine slumber! That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons, even death may die!

Was /searching to see if anyone's done a spell school/genre hat analysis. (in the planet of hats sense). I have this idea for a tweaked/refluffed incarnum-mechanic type thing.... Closest thing I found was the 'reworking spell system' thread.