Author Topic: Sneak Attack Optimization  (Read 24968 times)

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Venia

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Sneak Attack Optimization
« on: January 04, 2010, 11:11:45 PM »
Some may have seen the pixie thread I posted earlier. I was given good advice, and ultimately I decided to drop pixie for something with less LA. I still want a sneak attack optimized build though and without the invisibility effect, I'm unsure as to how to constantly sneak attack.

Here's my character creation info. I'm allowed four sources (PHB,DMG,MM1 are automatic though, don't need to buy them), two base classes and two prestige classes. However, I can trade a source for a base/prestige class, or vise-versa (only allowed to do this once per class though). ALSO, I can take a penalty to all gold received in the game by buying an extra source or class, but this is not preferred. We start at ECL5 with 32 point buy. Fast casting prestige classes are not allowed.

Here's what I was thinking so far. First of all, exchange one prestige class for an extra base class. Next, I would take swordsage, rogue, wizard, until ten, then take unseen seer. This would land me with ~9d6 sneak attack dice right? Any other ideas? I know this isn't the best way to do this, so I'm asking you guys. :) I believe I was also told that Swashbuckler+Daring outlaw would be good too so I could potentially sacrifice a source.

How would you do it?

snakeman830

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 11:38:12 PM »
MIC would do well to be used.  The Rogue's Vest and Deadly Precision weapon properties both add 1d6 to your exisitng sneak attack damage, so that's another 2d6 from one sourcebook.  That and there are just tons of useful items in there anyway.
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Havok4

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 11:39:28 PM »
Swordsage has many options that enable sneak attack, especially with the gloom razor feat. Craven is a good feat for a sneak attack specialist. Sneak attack is not usually a good option however as it can be blocked in many ways.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2010, 11:52:38 PM »
Sneak attack is not usually a good option however as it can be blocked in many ways.
I don't agree with that at all. Just because something doesn't work occasionally doesn't mean it isn't a good option. Unless you're in a campaign that is loaded with naturally immune stuff like undead (or your DM is a douchebag), I wouldn't worry about it.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2010, 11:55:36 PM »
It's in an arena, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were oodles of necropolitans...
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Havok4

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2010, 11:59:09 PM »
Sneak attack is not usually a good option however as it can be blocked in many ways.
I don't agree with that at all. Just because something doesn't work occasionally doesn't mean it isn't a good option. Unless you're in a campaign that is loaded with naturally immune stuff like undead (or your DM is a douchebag), I wouldn't worry about it.

I can see your point there it is just that I am not fond of focusing a build that will not function on a large variety of creature without substantial investment of resources.

TheEndIsNear

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 11:59:35 PM »
Wasn't there weapon crystals that allow FULL sneak attack damage agaisnt undead?

Greater truedeath or sumthing?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2010, 12:04:50 AM »
Wasn't there weapon crystals that allow FULL sneak attack damage agaisnt undead?

Greater truedeath or sumthing?
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

It's in an arena, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were oodles of necropolitans...
I didn't know that. In a way, that makes it easier, though. You mostly need to worry about undead, constructs (if someone is a WFJ), and concealment.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 12:06:26 AM by PhaedrusXY »
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2010, 12:08:27 AM »
Wasn't there weapon crystals that allow FULL sneak attack damage agaisnt undead?

Greater truedeath or sumthing?
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.
There's a pair of bracers in MIC that let you sneak attack anything 3/day (assuming, of course, the conditions are still met, so Concealment blocks it)

Blindfold of True Darkness takes care of Concealment, and its range is limited to SA range anyway.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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That explains so much about my life.
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Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
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Venia

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2010, 12:14:37 AM »
There's also those wands you can use for sneak attacking constructs, undead, etc. I think I'll most definitely have to take MiC as one of my sources, all sorts of handy stuff in there.

As far as I know, there are no undead/necro's because of LA buyoff restrictions (read none). That could change though, but I'm not too worried. Normally I'm against characters designed for one purpose, but since there's not a huge variety in the arena, versatility isn't much of an issue.

I'm thinking something like:
Rogue1/Wizard1/Swordsage1/Swashbuckler6/Swordsage1/Unseen Seer10.

How does it look do y'all? I'll end up with 7 effective rogue levels worth of sneak attack dice (4d6), Assassin's stance (2d6), Unseen Seer (4d6), then items, for about 12d6 of sneak attack dice. I'll also get 6th level wizard spells and a decent set of manuevers.

JaronK

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2010, 01:09:47 AM »
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

IIRC stuff without a discernable anatomy can never be sneak attacked, which means anything with the Psuedonatural template as well as any ooze and most elementals.  Also, lots of stuff trumps sneak attack... I almost always have concealment against me in arena fights specifically to screw any sneak attacker.

JaronK

snakeman830

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2010, 02:18:06 AM »
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

IIRC stuff without a discernable anatomy can never be sneak attacked, which means anything with the Psuedonatural template as well as any ooze and most elementals.  Also, lots of stuff trumps sneak attack... I almost always have concealment against me in arena fights specifically to screw any sneak attacker.

JaronK
Psuedonatural template (either version) doesn't make something immune to sneak attack.  That said, there are ways around just about every immunity.  Concealment is foiled by a Blindfold of True Darkness.  Any crit immunity (except fortification, IIRC) can be negated via those bracers I mentioned earlier (Deathstrike Bracers, I think).  It's possible to do this, but the trick is going to be triggering SA (getting them to lose their Dex bonus).  Grease probably won't work since virtually everyone is prepared for that in Arena games.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2010, 02:21:19 AM »
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

IIRC stuff without a discernable anatomy can never be sneak attacked, which means anything with the Psuedonatural template as well as any ooze and most elementals.  Also, lots of stuff trumps sneak attack... I almost always have concealment against me in arena fights specifically to screw any sneak attacker.

JaronK
It's hard to get concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing and/or Blindsight.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2010, 05:56:12 AM »
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

IIRC stuff without a discernable anatomy can never be sneak attacked, which means anything with the Psuedonatural template as well as any ooze and most elementals.  Also, lots of stuff trumps sneak attack... I almost always have concealment against me in arena fights specifically to screw any sneak attacker.

JaronK
It's hard to get concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing and/or Blindsight.
Greater/concealing amorpha.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2010, 06:47:26 AM »
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

IIRC stuff without a discernable anatomy can never be sneak attacked, which means anything with the Psuedonatural template as well as any ooze and most elementals.  Also, lots of stuff trumps sneak attack... I almost always have concealment against me in arena fights specifically to screw any sneak attacker.

JaronK
It's hard to get concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing and/or Blindsight.
Greater/concealing amorpha.
Ok, not that hard... but how many times do you hear "My DM bans psionics!" :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2010, 08:26:00 AM »
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

IIRC stuff without a discernable anatomy can never be sneak attacked, which means anything with the Psuedonatural template as well as any ooze and most elementals.  Also, lots of stuff trumps sneak attack... I almost always have concealment against me in arena fights specifically to screw any sneak attacker.

JaronK
It's hard to get concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing and/or Blindsight.
Greater/concealing amorpha.
Ok, not that hard... but how many times do you hear "My DM bans psionics!" :P
More times than is necessary, and more often than "My DM bans wizards" or other more justifiable banned things.

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2010, 11:00:48 AM »
Yes. It is possible to sneak attack just about anything, with the right equipment.

IIRC stuff without a discernable anatomy can never be sneak attacked, which means anything with the Psuedonatural template as well as any ooze and most elementals.  Also, lots of stuff trumps sneak attack... I almost always have concealment against me in arena fights specifically to screw any sneak attacker.

JaronK
It's hard to get concealment that isn't negated by True Seeing and/or Blindsight.
Greater/concealing amorpha.
Ok, not that hard... but how many times do you hear "My DM bans psionics!" :P
More times than is necessary, and more often than "My DM bans wizards" or other more justifiable banned things.

Far more than you hear "Incarnum is banned", but only because so many people haven't heard of it.  Incarnum is actually allowed less than psionics, IME.  They just never tell you that up front.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2010, 05:28:44 PM »
Use two weapons. Also look up wand handles from dungeonscape as it will allow you to store a wand of golemstrike in one weapon and a wand of waithstrike in the other.

Nab what you like from the following;
Quote from: Class Boosters
Weapon Enchantments
Deadly Precision (CAd): +2d6 SA.
Deadly Precision (MiC): +1d6 SA.

Feats
Craven (CoRuin): +ECL on SA.
Deadly Precision (Epsi): reroll SA's 1s.
Sacred Strike (BoED): SA uses d8s vs evil creatures.
Savvy Rogue (CS): 10th level rogue abilities are increased.

Ambush Feats*
Aleval School (DotU): -2 on one save for one round.
Deafening Strike (CS): deafen for three rounds.
Disemboweling Strike (CS): 1d4 con damage
Gloom Strike (DotU): target's foes have concealment for three rounds.
Hamstring (CW): Half speed.
Head Shot (CW): confuse for one round.
Persistent Attacker (CW): next rounds 1st attack SAs on them no matter what.
Sickening Strike (DotU): sicken for one round.
Terrifying Strike (DotU): shaken for one round.
Throat Punch (CW): speechless for one round.
Venomous Strike (DotU): +2 to posion's DC (if any).

Items
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX): +1d6 SA, +5 hide & +2 initiative.
Rogue's Vest (MiC): +1d6 SA, +2 hide/move/reflex.
Murderer's Gloves (?): 3/day swift action, one round invisibility after SAing.
Umbral Awn or Custom Legacy (ToB/WoL): +3d6 SA.
Crystal of True Death (MiC): can SA undead.
Deathstrike Bracers(MiC): SA anything 3/day.

Spells
Grave Strike (SpC): can SA undead.
Golem Strike (SpC?): can SA golems.
Hunter's Eye (PHBII): +<cl/3>d6 SA, claim a cleric using anyspell made the wand for +6d6 :)

Other Notable Stuff
Mantle of the Predator (MiC, item): +1d6 SS on melee only, +5 hide/move.
Shadow Veil (MiC, item): while in shadows, gain concealment against stuff that does not use light to find you.
Ring of Darkhidden (MiC, item): darkvision cannot see you.
Darkstalker (LoM, feat): blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense still has to roll to find you, flank creatures with all around vision.
Assassins Stance (ToB): 3rd level shadow hand stance, grants +2d6 SA.
And go nuts.

The concealment clause is the only think holding SA back from trumping over damn near any nonspellcasting damager. Heck, even spellcasting for the most part as a cl 25 Spellsurged GAF(twinned WoF, WoF)x2 is only 150d6 damage but cl 18 hunter's eye & GTWF is 182d6+140. SA doesn't even stop at being capable of dealing high damage either. The Ambush feats can pile loads of debuffs often enough to a point the DM requires you to keep track of the monster's stats and a full ten levels in Rogue can have you dealing 2 str damage per attack which can complement your Wounding weapon's damage.
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Venia

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2010, 03:35:33 AM »
How do you get 182 sneak attack dice with TWF? I thought it was applied only to the first attack? Or are you counting the actual attack too? My main problem is sources. These are the sources I'm currently restricted to (we're using a source buy system)

Complete Adventurer
Complete Warrior
Magic Item Compendium
Tome of Battle
Races of Stone

I GUESS I could probably drop RoS for something else, but that loses me whisper gnome...undesirable
Using those sources, what's the best sneak attack I could be doing? (Rogue/Wizard/Swashbuckler/Swordsage/Unseen Seer)

For feats, so far I've got:
Gloom Razor
Daring Outlaw

I appreciate the help.

snakeman830

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Re: Sneak Attack Optimization
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2010, 04:07:24 AM »
Sneak attack damage is applied to every attack that qualifies.  If, for example, you only qualify for sneak attack because of an Invisibility spell, the first attack ends the spell and your other attacks do not qualify.  If you're flanking, however, all of your attacks qualify, so all get the damage bonus.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.