Author Topic: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue  (Read 139343 times)

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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #360 on: January 13, 2010, 02:19:52 PM »

And I've messaged KSBSnowowl on where I can find his build.

PM'ed you, but also added the link into my sig.
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rypta

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #361 on: January 13, 2010, 02:33:55 PM »
Q 96 Besides changing the skills for 3.5 (wilderness lore to knowledge nature and intuit direct to survival), how balanced is the 3.0 Masters of the Wild Deepwood Sniper to other 3.5 prestige classes? I've seen people do remakes, and even an updated version on D&D Wiki under homebrew, but the DM wants me to take it as written. I just want to know how bad an idea that is, or if it's something that wouldn't do me any harm.

Sorry to sidetrack this, but might you be able to link me to any of those homebrewed version of the Deepwood Sniper (other than the one on D&D Wiki)?  I've been talking with a DM about ways to update it for use in his campaign.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #362 on: January 13, 2010, 02:57:22 PM »
Q98:
Does Improved Natural Attack (MM) work on a colossal creature?  Phrased another way, does size increase to damage have a cap or can you keep going to colossal+, colossal++, etc.?  Please cite and quote rules sources.  Thank you.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #363 on: January 13, 2010, 03:01:41 PM »
Q98:
Does Improved Natural Attack (MM) work on a colossal creature?  Phrased another way, does size increase to damage have a cap or can you keep going to colossal+, colossal++, etc.?  Please cite and quote rules sources.  Thank you.
Yes: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#

Quote
Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons, as shown on the Epic Dragon Face and Reach and Epic Dragon Attacks tables below. In addition, the breath weapon of the oldest epic dragons is a larger cone than most Colossal dragons possess. The size modifier for these dragons remains -8.
[spoiler]
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Yoss

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #364 on: January 13, 2010, 03:10:21 PM »
Thank you.  So that says colossal+ is fine, but does not say anything about colossal++ or higher (maybe by inferrence?).

Q99:
Can a colossal creature use Righteous Might to gain size?  If so, what bonuses does it grant?  I have a character using Shapechange (PH) to become whatever (maybe Hydra), Giant Size (CAr) to become colossal, Sharptooth (SC) to give size increase to natural attack damage, and am looking for other ways to up the damage.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #365 on: January 13, 2010, 03:11:34 PM »
Thank you.  So that says colossal+ is fine, but does not say anything about colossal++ or higher (maybe by inferrence?).
I think the original Epic Handbook had Colossal++ and maybe even +++ as actual sizes, but it's not in the SRD.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Yoss

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #366 on: January 13, 2010, 03:28:00 PM »
I just did a search for "colossal" through the entire ELH and did not find reference to anything beyond Colossal+.  Even discussion of Colossal+ is limited to dragons.  ELH page 179 talks about taking any dragon into Colossal+, but still stops at Colossal+.  ELH page 181 has the quote you already cited about epic dragons attaining Colossal+.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #367 on: January 13, 2010, 03:35:17 PM »
I just did a search for "colossal" through the entire ELH and did not find reference to anything beyond Colossal+.  Even discussion of Colossal+ is limited to dragons.  ELH page 179 talks about taking any dragon into Colossal+, but still stops at Colossal+.  ELH page 181 has the quote you already cited about epic dragons attaining Colossal+.

The base rules mechanic for raising die types would also apply methinks, as would the rule about monks using Improved Natural Attack, as that's an effective die increase without increasing in size.  Stuff like this is why a kobold sorc can cast greater mighty wallop and smack a dragon on the nose with more force than the dragon's own tail slap :D
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #368 on: January 13, 2010, 03:46:24 PM »
I just did a search for "colossal" through the entire ELH and did not find reference to anything beyond Colossal+.  Even discussion of Colossal+ is limited to dragons.  ELH page 179 talks about taking any dragon into Colossal+, but still stops at Colossal+.  ELH page 181 has the quote you already cited about epic dragons attaining Colossal+.
Meh, maybe that was some 3rd party/homebrew stuff I'm thinking of, then.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Yoss

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #369 on: January 13, 2010, 03:52:12 PM »
Mighty Wallop Greater (RotD):
"As mighty wallop, except that the
bludgeoning melee weapon damage
increases by one size category for
every four caster levels you have, to
a maximum of fi ve size categories or
up to an effective size of Colossal."

Note the cap of Colossal.

Also note, I'm not trying to be annoying and I want this trick to work.  However, any "trick" I use will be heavily scrutinized by my usually-close-minded DM so I have to have strong and thorough justification for things.  In the example above where I have Shapechange and Giant Size, it would make sense that Righteous Might would increase size further, but other than the flavor of being twice the size it is not clear to me that there is any game mechanic benefit of extra size beyond Colossal+.

Another place to look is Deities&Demigods (granted it's 3.0) under the Alter Size Salient Divine Ability.  It allows growth to 1600 feet tall, but is still only considered Colossal (not even Colossal+).

I'm hoping someone can convince me there is a way to gain size benefits past Colossal+, but so far it sounds like that would be a house rule.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #370 on: January 13, 2010, 03:55:55 PM »
Giant Size + Righteous Might doesn't work, anyway. From RM:
Quote
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

Giant Size +Greater Mighty Whallop might. I don't remember how those are worded, and since one of them isn't actually a size increase... But yeah, I think anything above Colossal+ is house rule/homebrew territory.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Viletta Vadim

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #371 on: January 13, 2010, 04:01:26 PM »
There are no rules saying that there are not size categories above colossal, nor that you cannot have a weapon that deals damage as if it were beyond colossal.  I'd say it'd be a houserule to say you can't go beyond colossal.  Particularly since the Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for scaling weapons up and down, independent of their actual size.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #372 on: January 13, 2010, 04:04:21 PM »
Particularly since the Arms and Equipment Guide has rules for scaling weapons up and down, independent of their actual size.

But those aren't size increases. There are only so many sizes increases because there are so many sizes.


McPoyo

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #373 on: January 13, 2010, 04:14:30 PM »
3.0 had the Collossal+ size category. There's also a third party supplement that does it, as well. Includes things like Macro fine, Macro medium, etc.
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Yoss

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #374 on: January 13, 2010, 04:18:16 PM »
Quote
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Whoops!  You're right!  I had forgotten that little snag.  Thanks.  I guess Giant Size + Sharptooth is as good as I can do as far as size goes.  Now to figure ways add other things like Magic Fang and such...

@Viletta: Check the table in Rules Compendium page 116, which categorizes Colossal as height/length 64+ feet and weight 125+ tons (open ended).  Since the Colossal entry has no upper limit on physical dimensions, the implication is that there is nothing beyond Colossal (with the only known exception being epic dragons).

Q98, Q99 are now closed, thanks.

A98/99: Improved Natural Attack (and similar pseudo-size-increasing effects) can increase damage from Colossal to Colossal+ based on the dragon entries in the Epic Level Handbook on page 179-181 (and in Epic section of SRD, which makes it kosher 3.5), but there is no known way to go beyond Colossal+ without house rules.

Viletta Vadim

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #375 on: January 13, 2010, 06:59:17 PM »
While there's no going to a size beyond colossal as a creature, I see no reason within the rules that weapon damage wouldn't continue to scale.  A&EG tables scale all the way to 24d6.  I see no reason why you couldn't continue to increase damage all the way to 24d6.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #376 on: January 13, 2010, 07:12:15 PM »
While there's no going to a size beyond colossal as a creature, I see no reason within the rules that weapon damage wouldn't continue to scale.  A&EG tables scale all the way to 24d6.  I see no reason why you couldn't continue to increase damage all the way to 24d6.

Well, for one, the weapon damage scales are inconsistent. Two, it's a matter of what the ability says. If you're Colossal and you increase by one size, then, you don't increase. There is no higher size. If you get a weapon damage increase, you could hypothetically keep scaling.

EDIT: I'd say this is by not a Simple Question. The rules on this are very unclear and inconsistent, and if we want to keep discussing it, I suggest it gets it's own thread.

EDIT2: Q100 The Awl Pike from dragon is a polearm with 15ft reach. What happens when you're large? 30ft?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 07:15:24 PM by bearsarebrown »

snakeman830

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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #377 on: January 13, 2010, 07:25:08 PM »
Q100 The Awl Pike from dragon is a polearm with 15ft reach. What happens when you're large? 30ft?
A similar question comes up with whips.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #378 on: January 13, 2010, 08:58:32 PM »
Hence, dip (2 levels) :D
True, but I need something more permanent too if I want to become 30 HD. I'm kind of spreading myself out enough as it is. Hmm. I'll come up with something.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question: The Revenge of the Grue
« Reply #379 on: January 13, 2010, 09:54:07 PM »
Q100 The Awl Pike from dragon is a polearm with 15ft reach. What happens when you're large? 30ft?
A similar question comes up with whips.
PHB says it doubles reach.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]