Author Topic: On Kobolds and True Dragons  (Read 24223 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2010, 10:13:33 PM »
You know, people say that Dragonwrought kobolds were not meant to be true dragons saying that they dont fit in the dragon fluff and are not like dragons in general...

Then I realised that Dragonwrought kobolds have their maximum age increased depending on their heritage. X5 CHA mod for cromatic heritage and X10 CHA mod for metallic heritage.

Is this another nail in the "Was not meant to be a true dragon" coffin ?
No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?
A nail it like Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type. Look I can say by RAW the trick fails yet again, not that it matters since no one cares.

Anyway, have you guys seen this video yet?

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2010, 10:47:39 PM »
No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?
A nail it like Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type. Look I can say by RAW the trick fails yet again, not that it matters since no one cares.
Force Dragons, Prismatic Dragons, Radiant Dragons, Shadow Dragons, most Lung Dragons...

Sorry, your objection fails because it says numerous true dragons are not true dragons.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2010, 11:14:35 PM »

X5 CHA mod for cromatic heritage and X10 CHA mod for metallic heritage.


But but ... that's just the good looking ones. And some of them might live longer than true dragons, which means they cay-yant be real true dragons.
 ;)

But a given Dragonwrought Kobold lives exactly as long as a true dragon.

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2010, 11:27:26 PM »
No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?
A nail it like Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type. Look I can say by RAW the trick fails yet again, not that it matters since no one cares.
Force Dragons, Prismatic Dragons, Radiant Dragons, Shadow Dragons, most Lung Dragons...

Sorry, your objection fails because it says numerous true dragons are not true dragons.

Also

"Bitch!  I'm immune to Positive Energy!"
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SorO_Lost

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #104 on: January 31, 2010, 04:59:14 PM »
No. What does categorizing your self to age like a gold dragon have over categorizing your self to age like a true dragon?
A nail it like Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type. Look I can say by RAW the trick fails yet again, not that it matters since no one cares.
Force Dragons, Prismatic Dragons, Radiant Dragons, Shadow Dragons, most Lung Dragons...

Sorry, your objection fails because it says numerous true dragons are not true dragons.
I knew the only retort back would be "ignore it as I can find an exception to prove it's not true to all!" and I figured since the RC doesn't list force as an Energy damage type, even though the acid sidebar makes it known why acid is even considered Energy and thus tells the reason force isn't listed, would get used. You may note the capitalization of my use of the word Energy to avoid mistake of grouping positive and negative energy or even the force and light subtypes that deal damage into the same category as Energy as the writers of the draconmicon were not but I not saying I know more than they did of the rules or that they committed a horrendous yet fairly easy to understand why mistake of what Energy is. So instead let me offer a much more manageable compensation towards you guys. If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar. Which would also mean you wouldn't have to deal with the all true dragons have spell resistance & damage reduction as well, isn't that great?

Given JaronK has a habit of when proven wrong to spend countless hours nitpicking over tiny details, such as this threads idea of finding a single dragon that doesn't seem to follow the all compressing rules of true dragons to invalidate everything in order to squeeze in some meandering detail of munchkinzation, I'm sure if much better point that kobolds are true dragons can be found it will be and I will then either refute or accept that point when it comes.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2010, 08:23:40 PM »
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
:clap  QFT.   

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[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #106 on: January 31, 2010, 09:27:46 PM »


Dracnomicon's page 62 sidebar stating all true dragons are immune to at least one energy type.


Ah ... that's a new one.

I don't have access to that book anymore, just like "we" don't have access to Tsuyo's best arguments for it, from the original original thread.
So, supposing this objection is real, one just has to gain: Immunity to at least one energy type.
And until that happens, the Kobold isn't a true true dragon.
Sounds reasonable enough, and of course obtaining Immunity to one energy type is within reach at some point.

Since I can't confirm this objection, does someone want to 2nd it ??

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #107 on: January 31, 2010, 09:42:57 PM »
Since I can't confirm this objection, does someone want to 2nd it ??
I don't normally dig up things for people, but you've always been helpful so I looked.

Chapter 2 runs pages 57-100. Tables 2-1 and 2-2 run pages 59-65. However there are no sidebars within those pages. Page 62 in Draconomicon, book of Dragons, does not have any sidebar. It discusses manueverability. I didn't see 'True Dragon' mentioned in the text upon a skim. So its not there (nor in p62 RoD either).

And be nice to JaronK. I don't care about this thread one way or the other (aside from one funny build of mine that proves the cheesiest +sorc casting reaches level 9 spells slower than fast casting), but I do care about fairness. And JaronK has always (that I have seen) been fair. So, um ya, be fair people.
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #108 on: January 31, 2010, 09:44:01 PM »
If you're going to use generalized descriptions as rules text, then apparently no true dragon can take the Vow of Poverty feat.  

The "range in length" statement sets some upper and lower bounds.  Oh, look, dragonwrought kobolds are between several feet and more than 100 feat.  Surprise!

Capitalizing "Energy" gets you nowhere.  It ain't capitalized in the rules.  We also have an explicitly true chromatic dragon that has no immunity to fire, acid, cold, sonic or electricity.  But yet, and I quote, "its status as a true dragon is without doubt."


You aren't really helping your case by resorting to ad hominen attacks either.


If we're talking about intent, it's pretty obvious the intent was to have a kobold character able to say "you know guys, I'm technically a true dragon.  Nyaaa!  Draconic pride!  Let's start a racial awareness campaign!  True dragon history month!"  It's not the designers' fault that there were abilities keyed off truedragonhood.  
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 10:31:24 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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snakeman830

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #109 on: January 31, 2010, 09:47:20 PM »
Page 62 of Draconomicon has no sidebars.  It's discussing ariel combat for dragons.  Now, if you missed a number in there and meant page 162, then you're in the middle of the Ghostly Dragon entry.  No dice there either.

Now, it might be fair to say that all True Dragons are immune to Sleep and Paralysis (Dragonwrought kobolds are still included) and at least one other form of attack (Dragonwrought Kobolds are not included.)  Unfortunately, even this falls flat as Incarnum Dragons have no special immunity.  Thus, even that definition cannot be correct, so Dragonwrought Kobolds still qualify.  Spell Resistance and Damage Reduction are not on the younger True Dragons (save Force and Prismatic), so saying that all True Dragons have those would mean that wyrmlings are not True Dragons until they reach a certian point in their life.  That makes no sense whatsoever.

In fact, the ONLY definition I've seen that encompasses all True Dragons is as JaronK presented:

1. Must be of the Dragon Type
2. Must have age categories
3. Must grow stonger as it ages

Dragonwrought Kobolds do meet this criteria, although it is pretty obvious that the benefites of such were NOT what the designers intended.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:56:30 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
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hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #110 on: January 31, 2010, 11:40:39 PM »

If we're talking about intent, it's pretty obvious the intent was to have a kobold character able to say "you know guys, I'm technically a true dragon.  Nyaaa!  Draconic pride!  Let's start a racial awareness campaign!  True dragon history month!"  It's not the designers' fault that there were abilities keyed off truedragonhood.  
That is hilarious.

JaronK

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #111 on: February 01, 2010, 12:03:24 AM »
He's right though, Races of the Dragon makes it pretty clear that that was EXACTLY their intent.  It keeps going off about how much Kobolds want to brag about being dragons.  But Dragons of Eberron wasn't out yet, so the implications weren't in place...

JaronK

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #112 on: February 01, 2010, 12:26:23 AM »
The energy immunity line is on page 22 of Draconomicon.

EDIT: On the same page, it also says true dragons gain damage reduction and spell resistance as they age, though that is not qualified with "every true dragon" like energy immunity is.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 12:34:26 AM by rypta »

JaronK

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #113 on: February 01, 2010, 12:49:01 AM »
Though again a bunch of True Dragons don't have energy immunity, so claiming that a dragon isn't true because it lacks energy immunity is hardly useful.  The actual line, by the way, is "Every true dragon is immune to at least one type of elemental energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire), usually the same type of energy as the dragon uses for its breath weapon.  This immunity stems from the dragons elemental nature.  The same power that allows it to belch forth a blast of energy also keeps that energy from harming the dragon."

This statement of course does not hold true for a significant number of dragons already listed in that same book as being true dragons (many of which also lack any "elemental nature").  So clearly, using that statement to rule out True Dragons doesn't work, as any logic that creates a false conclusion must itself be false.

JaronK

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2010, 01:03:04 AM »
I hadn't seen the Immunity descript-o, as an argument against DWK's being True Dragons before.
So now that that's over ...  :)

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #115 on: March 31, 2010, 03:20:27 AM »
I know this thread is a little old, however I came across a line in Dragon Magic that I thought might be significant to this issue.  I know this issue is awfully heated, so I apologize if this was meant to stay dead!

Quote from: Dragon Magic, pg. 87
To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).

JaronK

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2010, 03:22:46 AM »
Wow, nice quote.  Very handy.

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #117 on: March 31, 2010, 03:27:29 AM »
I know this thread is a little old, however I came across a line in Dragon Magic that I thought might be significant to this issue.  I know this issue is awfully heated, so I apologize if this was meant to stay dead!

Quote from: Dragon Magic, pg. 87
To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).
The information has also already been taken into account.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

rypta

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #118 on: March 31, 2010, 03:31:11 AM »
I know this thread is a little old, however I came across a line in Dragon Magic that I thought might be significant to this issue.  I know this issue is awfully heated, so I apologize if this was meant to stay dead!

Quote from: Dragon Magic, pg. 87
To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).
The information has also already been taken into account.
Oh.  I searched the thread and it didn't look like anyone had mentioned it here.  If that is the case, I apologize for repeating it.

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Re: On Kobolds and True Dragons
« Reply #119 on: March 31, 2010, 03:34:53 AM »
The general issue of 12 age categories has been mentioned, though not that specific line.

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