Author Topic: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)  (Read 9604 times)

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altpersona

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Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« on: December 31, 2009, 12:08:58 AM »
I can never remember what things do / do not work w/ bloodlines.  

if i overlooked an existing handbook, please smite me...


(EDIT: found it, by  PlzBreakMyCampaign  http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863198/Balanced_Bloodlines_Interpretation_38;_Implementation?num=10&pg=1) but its got all this wotc ich on it..



I dont much care about the specific effects of any given bloodline.

but those specifics are generally laid out here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

The Gist of it : creatures who have an ancestry that includes mythical beings may be gifted with abilities related to their heritage.

UA presents 3 tier of bloodlines, Minor, Intermediate, and Major.

I dont recall ever seeing anyone use Minor or Intermediate in TO/CO build.

They do not say it explicitly, that I am aware of, but it seems the intent is to offer LA to pc's that do not normally have it.

Pro's n Cons

con : no BAB (typical max BAB @ 20 is ~ 17)
con : no save bonuses.
con : no hit points
con : no skill points
con : no class features
con : counts as a class level.
con : 20% xp penalty for not following the progression requirements.
con : unlike regular LA, you cant buy off a bloodline, cause its not LA..

yikes thats a lot of cons.

neutral : counts as a character lvl for determining max skill ranks. (Bl 3 / Fi 1, max skill rank is 7 same as any lvl 4 pc.)
neutral : dosnt count for multi classing XP penalty.

pro: counts as a lvl in any class that has class based abilities.
pro: feats, ability increases, SLA/SU/EX abilities based on character lvl and heritage.


on the surface this looks like the one sure fire way to make straight fighter as bad as straight commoner.

but, it can be worthwhile in the right build.

did you dip spell casting classes galore?

caster5/Bl3/dip1 x 12, if all 12 dips are + cl classes, then the total CL is 56 w/ lvl 9 spells.

here is an initial list of SRD classes and their abilities that bloodlines improve.

if i put a ? next to an entry, it means i wasnt sure about its legitimacy..

not all of the listed abilities are worth it. if your lvl progression is not 1/1 or 1/2, then its probably a crappy gain..



SRD classes w/ abilities.
[spoiler]Barbarian
[spoiler]   - Rage : frequency. 1/day @ 1st lvl, 2 at 4th, +1 per 4 barb lvls thereafter, maybe max of 6.
   - Trap Sense : +1 every three barbarian lvls after 3rd lvl.
   - Im Uncanny Dodge: class lvls to determine min rogue flank lvl. [spoiler](barb5/rogue4/Bl3 = lvl R19 can flank, where B5/R7 would be 16)[/spoiler]
   - Damage Reduction: every three lvls after 7 increase by 1.[/spoiler]
   
Bard
[spoiler]   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.
   - i think the learn a new spell in place of the old might count, but idk how that would work.
   - Bardic Knowledge
   - Bardic Music, frequency of use. (1 / day / lvl)
   - Bardic Music, various effects (im skipping them for now.)[/spoiler]
   
Cleric
[spoiler]   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.[/spoiler]
   
Druid
[spoiler]   - Caster lvl, not spells per day
   - Animal Companion, power increase.
   - Animal Companion, alternate animal options
   - Wild Empathy
   - Wild Shape, Duration[/spoiler]

Fighter
[spoiler]   - Nada[/spoiler]

Monk
[spoiler]   - AC bonus, 1/5 lvls.
   - Flurry of blows, penalty easment?
   - Unarmed strike, damage increase?
   - Fast Movement, Rate?
   - Ki Strike
   - Slow Fall
   - Wholeness of body
   - Abundant Step, caster lvl
   - Diamond Soul
   - Quivering Palm, DC
   - Empty Body, Duration[/spoiler]

Paladin
[spoiler]   - Aura of Good
   - Smite Evil, extra damage
   - Smite Evil, frequency?
   - Lay on Hands, Damage Healed.
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day
   - Special Mount, duration
   - Remove Disease, frequency of use?
   - Paladins Mount, abilities[/spoiler]

Ranger
[spoiler]   - Favored Enemy, number of? / bonus vs.
   - Wild Empathy
   - Animal Companion (as druid /2)
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day[/spoiler]

Rogue
[spoiler]   - Sneak Attack, Damage?
   - Trap Sense
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge[/spoiler]

Sorc/Wiz
[spoiler]   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day
   - Replacing spells, Sorc?
   - Familiar, power increase[/spoiler]

Arcane Archer
[spoiler]   - Enhance Arrow, Potency?[/spoiler]

Arcane Trickster
[spoiler]   - Caster lvl, not spells per day
    - Ranged Legerdemain, frequency of use?
   - Sneak Attack, damage?[/spoiler]
   
Archmage
[spoiler]   - Caster lvl, not spells per day.
   - Arcane Fire, Damage
   - Arcane Fire, Range[/spoiler]

Assassin
[spoiler]   - Sneak Attack, Damage?
   - Death Attack, DC
   - Death Attack, paralysis duration
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.
   - Spell swap out?
   - Poison save, bonus
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge[/spoiler]

Blackgaurd
   [spoiler]- Aura of Evil, power
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day
   - Smite Good, Damage
   - Command Undead, effective lvl
   - Sneak Attack, damage?[/spoiler]

Dragon Disciple
[spoiler]   - Breath Weapon, damge?
   - Breath Weapon, DC
[/spoiler]

Duelist
[spoiler]   - Canny Defense, AC bonus limit[/spoiler]

Dwarven Defender
[spoiler]   - AC bonus, max 4?
   - Defensive Stance, frequency of use?
   - Trap Sense
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge
[/spoiler]

Eldritch Knight
[spoiler]   - Caster lvl + spells per day? "This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."
[/spoiler]

Hierophant
[spoiler]   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.[/spoiler]

Loremaster
[spoiler]   - Caster lvl + spell per day? "this essentially means" ...
   - Secret, number of?
   - Secret, determine choice of secret
   - Lore, as bardic knowledge [/spoiler]

Mystic Theurge
[spoiler]   - Caster lvls and Spells per day? " this essentially means"...[/spoiler]

Shadowdancer
   [spoiler]- Summon Shadow, shadow HD?
   - xp penalty for loss of shadow, easment.
   - Shadow Jump, distance?
   - Imp Uncanny Dodge[/spoiler]

Thaumaturgist
[spoiler]   - Caster lvl and Spells per day?[/spoiler]

Adept
   [spoiler]- Caster lvl
   - Familiar, power[/spoiler]


   [/spoiler]

I dont think that the class/ability list method is the best for this subject, so heres the revised list of SRD class abilities w/ out the class.
[spoiler]

   - Rage : frequency. 1/day @ 1st lvl, 2 at 4th, +1 per 4 barb lvls thereafter, maybe max of 6.
   - Trap Sense : +1 every three barbarian lvls after 3rd lvl.
   - Im Uncanny Dodge: class lvls to determine min rogue flank lvl.
   - Damage Reduction: every three lvls after 7 increase by 1.
   - Caster Lvl, not spells per day.
   - Bardic Knowledge
   - Bardic Music, frequency of use. (1 / day / lvl)
   - Bardic Music, various effects (im skipping them for now.)
   - Animal Companion, power increase.
   - Animal Companion, alternate animal options
   - Wild Empathy
   - Wild Shape, Duration
   - AC bonus, 1/5 lvls.
   - Flurry of blows, penalty easment?
   - Unarmed strike, damage increase?
   - Fast Movement, Rate?
   - Ki Strike
   - Slow Fall
   - Wholeness of body
   - Abundant Step, caster lvl
   - Diamond Soul
   - Quivering Palm, DC
   - Empty Body, Duration
   - Aura of Good
   - Smite , extra damage
   - Smite , frequency?
   - Lay on Hands, Damage Healed.
   - Special Mount, duration
   - Remove Disease, frequency of use?
   - Paladins Mount, abilities
   - Favored Enemy, number of? / bonus vs.
   - Sneak Attack, Damage?
   - Replacing spells
   - Familiar, power increase
   - Enhance Arrow, Potency?
    - Ranged Legerdemain, frequency of use?
   - Arcane Fire, Damage
   - Arcane Fire, Range
   - Death Attack, DC
   - Death Attack, paralysis duration
   - Poison save, bonus
   - Aura of Evil, power
   - Command Undead, effective lvl
   - Breath Weapon, damge?
   - Breath Weapon, DC
   - Canny Defense, AC bonus limit
   - AC bonus, max 4?
   - Defensive Stance, frequency of use?
   - Secret, number of?
   - Secret, determine choice of secret
   - Lore, as bardic knowledge
   - Summon Shadow, shadow HD?
   - xp penalty for loss of shadow, easment.
   - Shadow Jump, distance?


[/spoiler]

Overall, based only on srd classes / abilities, only three of four things seem useful.

Caster Lvl
Uncanny Dodge, lvl needed to be flatfooted by a rogue.. (meh)
Monk abilities (o yay, just what a monk needs, 3 more lvls that dont add bab or hp, or reduce MAD)
Familiar / Animal Companion / mount abilities
Smite damage
Wild Empathy ( :eh)

Im not sure about any of the abilities that are defined as 'every X lvls' such as favored enemy.

Im also not sure about Sneak Attack damage. if your SA is = 1/2 class lvl then yes, if each increment is a class feature then no. ymmv..

another area of greyness, is Caster lvls.

plain old Caster Level is in the description of bloodlines.

Quote

It says do not count toward spells per day, Only count toward Caster Level.

pretty clear cut.

but what if the class ability says Caster Level AND Spells per day are lvl based abilities.

we have known since ancient times that caster lvl and spells per day are not joined together..  for some of use learning this came as a shock, akin to the truth behind the great pumpkin or santa pun pun.

most classes are very clear on how they effect your spell casting.

some classes provide a spell list.
some increase the caster lvl of an existing class.
some increase the caster lvl and spells per day of and existing class.
some may, increase the spells per day of an existing class w/out increasing caster lvl.

the point being, ymmv when it comes to spell casting and bloodlines.


this post has dealt only w/ SRD items.

That leaves out one of the most CO abilities of all... Initiator Lvl..

If you have lvls in  Martial Class you have a full Initiator lvl per class lvl.. if not you have 1/2 per.

this can be a beautiful thing, if ToB is allowed..

but ToB should get its own post..

so, thats it for now, till i or someone like me dig into the other source books for more lvl based abilities..

I'll reserve the next post for builds.

after that the floor is open..



EDIT: i flat left srd psionics out.

but if they had been included, i would have mentioned, psi crystals, and soul knives..


« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 02:08:23 AM by altpersona »
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altpersona

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 12:09:20 AM »
Builds

till people post / suggest builds, im just gonna crawl around and steal em.. will give credit where i find it... if a screw that up, bitch at me...




Vita
[spoiler]
CG Dream dwarf (major titan bloodline) Cleric (Wrath [Strength Devotion], Destruction Devotion) 1/Barbarian 1/Crusader 15
Feats: Awesome SmiteCC, Divine Might, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (orc shotput), Extra Smiting, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot
Spells: rhino's rush
Equipment: Graf Eisen, 5x +1 orc shotput of returning

Item Familiar: Graf Eisen (+5 brutal surge warhammer of sizing)

Schwalbe Fliegen: Rapid Shot full attack with Orc shotput
Gigantform: Use sizing enchantment to grow Graf Eisen to Gargantuan size.
[/spoiler]



Quote from: jameswilliamogle  Re: Consolidated Binder Handbook Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 11:18:34 AM


 Binder 7 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 / Scion of Dantalion 2 / Tenebrous Apostate 1 / Apostate of the Green Lady 1 / Cleric 1 / major bloodline 3 has an EBL of 31, and can bind 4 vestiges as well (though 2 of them are set due to PrCs).  With Orthos and Amon, that's 31d6 damage area attacks: not bad!


Quote


Quote
Bloodline 3 / Warlock 12 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Chameleon 2

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Glaive_of_the_Hellfire_Warlock_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)


Quote
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5891.msg194537#msg194537

Major Fey Bloodline Feytouched Half-Fey Sorcerer 5/Wild Soul 10/ (Metamagic Specialist variant)/XXX 2

[spoiler]On 25 points:
STR 8 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 17 (STR 8 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 23 adjusted).  CHA is the only stat to boost.

TRAIT: Spellgifted (Enchantment).
FLAWS: Noncombatant, Vulnerable.

FEATS: (no particular order listed) Fey Heritage, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Fey Skin, Touch of Distraction, Fey Power, Twin Spell, Augment Summoning

ABILITIES: Fly 60' (Good); Low-Light Vision; DR 8/Cold Iron; Immune to mind-effecting spells & effects; Immune to Enchantment spells and effects; +2 on Hide/Move Silently; Charm Person at will; Hypnotism 1/day; Faerie Fire or Glitterdust 1/day; Sleep or Enthrall 1/day; Detect Law and Protection from Law 3/day each; Suggestion or Tasha's Hideous Laughter 1/day; Confusion or Emotion 1/day; Eyebite or Lesser Geas 1/day; Dominate Person or Hold Monster 1/day; Mass Invisibility 1/day; Geas/Quest or Mass Suggestion 1/day; Seelie Courtier; Spontaneous (Seelie) Spells; Seelie Bond; Summon Seelie Ally.
[/spoiler]

« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 01:53:31 AM by altpersona »
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Aliment

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 03:11:37 AM »
So the basics of the story is: Find a class that has a powerful feature based on Class level, and dip into it?  So would a swift hunter work?  Advance the Scout abilities while increasing the ranger level to get Skirmish 2x as fast?  And has anybody figured out what's up with the Titan bloodline allowing you to just randomly wield a giant hammer?
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altpersona

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 03:53:23 AM »
PBMC's handbook is pretty comprehensive.

i have not looked at swift hunter stuff for applicability.
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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 05:24:25 AM »
And has anybody figured out what's up with the Titan bloodline allowing you to just randomly wield a giant hammer?
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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 05:25:51 AM »
I'm going to check ToB and edit in a response, but from the looks of it, this may well make up for the majority of that which is lost by taking JPM as a wizard (not counting 10 levels that could have been Incantatrix, and a dip that could have been Metaphysical Spellshaper, but that's a different discussion).  9th level spells and 8th level maneuvers without SC or UP are already possible, so once I do a little crunch I'll edit in my findings.  Stay tuned!

EDIT : Here's one from the hip -
Battle Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Bloodline 3/Dragonslayer 1

What We Get :
[spoiler]CL 29
BAB 16 (3+1+1+10+1)
10d6+6d8+1d10+17(Con Mod) HP
Casting Progression of a Sorcerer 21 assuming the PrC trick works
IL of 26 I think...
Bad ass gishness from hell![/spoiler]
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 05:35:25 AM by KellKheraptis »
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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 09:19:08 PM »
Surely the real cheese here comes when you use PrCs which add your levels in another class to determine their level-based abilities?

For instance, ur-priest and sublime chord. It's been ages since I looked at the second, but ur-priest lets you add half your caster levels in other classes to your ur-priest caster level. Two levels of bloodline equals +3 caster level for ur-priest spells.

Then there's hellfire warlock, probably the most common use of bloodlines. Maybe a section comparing bloodlines against Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster for when you want to take level-based abilities beyond the cap? (Fiend of Possession is another good candidate for this)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 09:21:15 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 10:26:09 PM »
Combining bloodlines with UT/LC is the way to go.
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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2010, 12:34:16 AM »
Pathetic classes, with no real splat support, have this as the only possible improver.
Bloodline 3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets 4 extra levels, of class abilities.
So ...
Divine Mind 7 / B3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets the move action switch.
Lurk 6 / B3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets the Mind's Eye Metafaculty (ps)
yet they are still yawners.

Titan Bloodline says -
" ... Use oversized weapon (Ex)2 ... "
" ... # As the titan special ability. ... "
" ... Oversized Weapon (Ex) A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty. ... "

One possibility is "warhammer" is the extent of it. As in ONLY warhammer.
The other possibility is it refers to "oversized weapon" and the MM Titan just happens to be weilding a warhammer, it could be any weapon.

If the 2nd, then yeah you could wield a ridiculously large weapon.
Or a Monk could Flurry, with a "light" weapon relative to being able to wield really big hammers.

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 07:52:56 PM »
Kobold (Slight of Build) w/ Titan Bloodline.  Tiny creature with a Gargantuan hammer (could be Collosal if you 2-handed it right?).

I think someone did this except with Psychic warrior.  Mr. Big or something?
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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 09:42:43 PM »
Kobold (Slight of Build) w/ Titan Bloodline.  Tiny creature with a Gargantuan hammer (could be Collosal if you 2-handed it right?).

I think someone did this except with Psychic warrior.  Mr. Big or something?
That actually used subtype abuse and Jortunbrud.

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 10:25:21 PM »
You can still combine Titan Bloodline with return to nature abuse and be a Fine creature with a Gargantuan weapon.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2010, 10:29:52 PM »
You can still combine Titan Bloodline with return to nature abuse and be a Fine creature with a Gargantuan weapon.

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Prime32

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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2010, 11:30:25 PM »
I'm a bit confused re counting Bloodline 'levels' in ECL.

Quoting from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm  first paragraph
"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

This seems pretty straight forward.

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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 01:35:54 AM »
i think, what they meant so say, is 'we have an idea for a new option, but 4e is nearly here so we are not going to go into any detail about this new item."
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Re: Proto Handbook: Bloodlines (this could end as complete crap)
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2011, 12:54:35 AM »
Link to a designer weighing in on bloodlines:

http://gameschat19968.yuku.com/topic/2348


I'll comment later.
EDIT --- I posted this over here, instead of on PLZ's thread,
because I got weenie filtered off of that, inspite having posted on it.
I hate my weenie filter, I really do.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 10:48:27 PM by awaken DM golem »