Author Topic: Scion of the Hells build  (Read 2402 times)

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sombrastewart

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Scion of the Hells build
« on: December 30, 2009, 04:44:14 PM »
Hello, everyone.  I'm a lurker around here that greatly appreciates the knowledge this place has and have come to beg some help.  I rarely play casters, but in this particular case, I've got a concept I'd like to do.

First off, the restrictions; Core and Completes only, shying away from Leadership and no psionics.  The GM for this game also has something against ToB, even though he admits it's not overpowered.  (Don't ask, I've tried to figure it out, he just doesn't like it.)  Please don't ask about going outside these, it won't be allowed.

What I'm trying to do is create a character (for an evil party) that has the backstory of being a scion of one of the archdevils of the Nine Hells.  He doesn't know which one, but he has suspicions on the level of power they have as well as the philosophy he was instilled with: accrue power, become worthy of your heritage.

My old character was a Warlock 7/ Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3, but we're running the Expedition to Castle Greyhawk and doing so rather unforgivingly, and he didn't do well at all, so I'll need a bit more power than that.  While Favored Soul has a bit of flavor that kind of fits, I know it's not the most optimal choice.

Best ideas I've got are either Favored Soul or Cloistered Cleric (which I'm pretty sure I can get away with).  My line of thought on the cleric was that he's devoted to the idea of the the Hells instead of one particular entity (because he doesn't know which entity).  Again, not playing casters gives me an issue on spell choice and domains to pick.  As of right now, there's a bard, an assassin and a wizard/rogue/swiftblade (I think).  The bard has Leadership for a big mess of people, which has the GM pretty aggravated, and this is after he originally played a serious CoDzilla as his last character.

Ability score rolls: 18, 15, 13, 13, 10, 8

The best I idea I have involving the cleric is to advance until I can qualify for Contemplative, to pick up extra domains.  Contemplative is nice and all, but I'm not sure how it stacks up with other divine PrCs.  I had also thought about maybe trying to work out Dweomerkeeper, but again, not being familiar with casters means I'm not sure about the best way to go about it.  I had considered the idea of doing with a Sorc/Favored Soul for some attribute synergy, but the ability to spontaneously convert to a particular spell is kind of lost with those classes.

I want to say thanks in advance to anyone that takes time to offer some thoughts, and I'm more than happy to cough up more information if I haven't provided enough.

shandiris

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 05:51:56 PM »
Strange to shy away from leadership if a member of the party already has it, but whatever.
Maybe you could try convincing your DM that you can also make an evil cleric malconvoker. Possibly with the Baator and Diabolic Domain (FC II)
That will allow you to summon some nice devils that can act as BSF's. You could also start persisting lesser visage of the deity, so you can be in your pure form (like bearded devil) the whole time.

sombrastewart

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 06:13:17 PM »
Thanks for the idea, I'll try it to see if it works. 

Any other ideas?

Unbeliever

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 08:18:47 PM »
I think your scion of the Nine Hells idea suits many character builds/ideas.  It's really a matter of fluff.  I can see why a bard player might want followers, but it sounds like he's sort of being a jerk about it.  Then again, at 11th I seriously can't see how useful even souped-up followers (i.e., dragonfire inspired) can be:  a single fireball or great cleaving or fear-inspiring villain should destroy them all.

But, we digress.  +1 on cleric malconvoker (which is in Complete Scoundrel, so fits your restrictions).  I am playing a differently-themed one right now and it's great fun.  There are also plenty of guides to help you out.  You said you don't play many casters, so malconvoker is kind of a double-edged sword.  On the one hand, you won't have to worry too much about what spells to memorize -- it'll usually rhyme w/ "shmummon shmonster" -- but on the other hand summoned monsters can be a pain to manage, especially w/ all their SLAs.  A summoner also synergizes well w/ the bard and the 2 roguey types.

Also, why not just a regular old cleric or favored soul caster type?  Given the theme I could see the black platemail clad melee cleric of doom w/ great physical power, attained through DMM and various spells.  That's probably the more powerful option.  Or, you could go more castery and find infernally-themed spells, stuff like Darkfire (SpC, cleric 3, I think) and blast away w/ infernal flames.  Your first post made me think your DM might be a little wary of CoDzilla, so you may want to talk to him about what he thinks is reasonable.  The second one, though, is kind of hard for a DM to complain about, especially if you eschew DMM (persist) for DMM (chain, quicken, or maximize).  For that one I'd probably go favored soul/sacred exorcist.  FS is not as good as cleric, but it fits better and frankly is easier to play.  The high charisma also seems to fit the character, and you could augment that w/ some fear stuff (there's a handbook around, but intimidate + imperious command + fearsome armor goes a long way).  I don't know if you'll be running into all undead or not, though.  If you run w/ that idea it'd be great to find a PrC that gives you some more charisma synergy -- something like an evil version of the Prestige Paladin would be great, but I don't know what there is around.  I don't play a lot of evil characters.

That's all sticking w/ the divine caster idea.  I could see taking the concept lots of other places, such as more martial ones, especially depending on how good the bard player's buffing is, as probably more along the lines of a charisma-oriented fighter/tank type.  But that wasn't what you were asking for. 

sombrastewart

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2010, 03:08:00 AM »
Thank you for the response, Unbeliever, I appreciate it very much.

I considered doing a favored soul, but my reticence with casters reared it's head again: I don't know which spells to take and which to avoid.  Favored Souls are something I've tried to research in the past, but was unable to find any kind handbook or build advice on.  I love the flavor of the class and would appreciate any input people might have on it.  The last cleric was a high Wis, low Int cleric of Grumsh half-orc that just butchered damn near everything.  I'd rather avoid that sort of thing.

Another idea I had someone pitch me was doing a Warlock/Ur Priest/Eldritch Disciple, but I don't know how good that is, especially without (as far as I know) a melee guy to buff.

As for doing a martial flavor or some such, I had thought about doing a Paladin of Tyranny into Blackguard, but honestly didn't think the ability scores were good enough.  Ah, to have him just be a ToB fan.

Unbeliever

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 12:01:46 PM »
Ah, to have him just be a ToB fan.

+1 b/c when you described the character I was like go Hellbred or low ECL Tiefling, etc. and just grab Crusader and some black platemail and call it a day.

Ok, I think there are 2 things you need to figure out: 
  • 1.  How tough do you need to be?  Your first character was a Hellfire Warlock, iirc, and while that's not generally considered "top shelf" I find it usually suffices.  But, you seemed to say it was too weak, although the builds of the other party members you posted don't strike me as particularly powerful.
  • 2.  What do you actually want to play?  You've been given at least 3 build ideas pursuant to your OP of a divine spellcaster w/ a certain theme.  Yet, you still seem to be vacillating between playing a spellcaster at all.  I think you need to contemplate the suggestions you've already received a bit, and if you are having trouble weighing them then you can post to make sure you've got the pros and cons worked out right.  All 3 of them are relatively easy casters to play.  If what you really want to play is a non-caster w/ a certain general theme then you should just ask us what the best build we can come up w/ along those lines is.
  • 2.1.  What do you find troubling about casters?  For example, my gf -- who's a damn good D&Der -- doesn't like having to sift through 20+ possible actions each round, so that's why she doesn't like casters.  You seem to be worried about picking spells at character creation, which is relatively solvable and you can get help from us w/, though you have to be reasonably specific.

sombrastewart

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2010, 07:22:04 PM »
Unbeliever, thanks for the input, I really do appreciate it.

To address #1: I tried the Hellfire Warlock and as it turned out, the CoDzilla in the group threw the survivability curve off.  At the time, the group had the half-orc cleric that basically won most encounters, a Knight that focused on boosting AC as much as possible (newer player) and then everyone else was basically rotating new characters.  I had originally done a Dark template rogue that got pegged with a Slay Living SLA.  So, the warlock did alright on the damage, averaging around 50, but frankly, he wasn't tough enough.  It didn't help that since I don't have a physical copy of FCII, I had some class features wrong, and he died a rather gruesome death.

Now, the group decided to basically draw up new characters, and the CoDzilla drew up a Leadership Bard to try and 'cover all the bases.'  The GM isn't tickled about this, either.  I don't know if there's a meaty frontliner or not, but aside from another CoDzilla esque type, I don't have a good idea to anchor in that manner.  Doing something like a Blackguard off of something like a Paladin of Tyranny sounds intriguing, but I don't know that I have the stats to make it work.  Pretty much every damn thing is in a dungeon, so I don't know that there'd be the opportunity for mounted stuff.

To address #2: My preferences are to make a caster and have some fun with the flavor.  I haven't actually played in an evil campaign before and honestly, I like the backstory idea (obviously).  What don't I like about them?  It boils down to spell choices.  What's important?  Damage?  Save or Dies?  Buffs?  That sort of thing.  I also really hated playing in games where the caster basically dominated (like the above CoDzilla).  The problem seems to be that I prefer decently strong characters with more emphasis on the flavor and the CoD/Bard guy prefers straight power.  I'm not saying that you can't have both, but it's a difference of emphasis.

The best idea I've come up with myself, so far, is to mix up warlock and Ur-Priest for some Eldritch Disciple.  I guess doing Favored Soul instead of Ur-Priest might be better synergy, but that's some severely hampered casting progression, especially compared to the Ur-Priest.  It seems like using the warlock for the offense and the cleric casting for support is the more preferred method, (given not having the stuff to go for the melee role, even all buffed up), but that doesn't seem like a lot of power to bring to bear.

Am I making any sense?

Unbeliever

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2010, 12:51:33 PM »
...

Am I making any sense?

Option 1
More or less.  Given that, I would suggest going for a Favored Soul/Sacred Exorcist/maybe something else that grants you some domains.  My thinking is that you can grab a bit of DMM, either something to boost your casting (quicken or chain or maximize) or something to boost your defenses (persist).  And, then, maybe you can sack some of the domains your prestige class grants you to grab some of the better devotion feats.  You might also see if your DM lets you make an evil version of the Prestige Paladin.  Also, since survivability seems to be an issue, you might take a look at the Bone Knight from Eberron, which is pretty good and might fit, although it's from an Eberron book. 

Spell selection is relatively surmountable.  The cleric handbook helps out a lot, and for Favored Souls you might just peak at the Sorc's handbook, if there's a decent one, for what you're looking for w/ a limited spell list.  You can also look at the Sand Shaper prestige class (though it's in Sandstorm, and not on your list) or something similar to expand your spell list, though I don't strictly speaking that's necessary.  I suggest the spontaneous caster b/c I think while you'll agonize a bit over spell choice I find it easier w/ them than w/ prepared casters. 

It sounds like you're not particularly interested in "breaking the optimization bank," so, frankly, I wouldn't stress about it too much.  I'd look at the Cleric's Handbook for some of the "best" spells, and then I'd take a tour through SpC and find ones that strike you as thematic.  E.g., Blade of Pain and Fear and Darkfire.  It also depends a little on what you expect to fight and whether your fellow players will expect you to be ye olde healbot.  But, that's the sort of thing you can take an hour going through and then post here and get some advice.  As someone who plays a lot of spellcasters and considers himself a practical optimizer, I find having a theme to my spells, realizing that fluff on spells is pretty malleable, a really useful guide.  Give it a shot, and if you want help you've got this forum.

Option 2
I don't think the big hurtle to your Blackguard approach would be stats so much as the suckiness of Blackguards and their ilk mechanically.  You can start another thread trying to get a good character in that style and see what people come up w/.  I haven't given it much thought, but I'm sure you'll see what people come up w/, which tends to be amazingly good imho. 

sombrastewart

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2010, 01:14:16 PM »
Thank you again, you've been incredibly helpful.

I talked to the GM yesterday and in the session I missed, everyone except the bard (and the bards two high level followers) all died.  The swiftblade apparently went down and then rerolled into a blackguard, which leaves the party pretty wide open again.  I'm going to do another push on the Malconvoker idea, maybe even try to keep the Bluff/Sense Motive mechanic.  Beyond that, it seems like it's almost necessary to build something that's incredibly optimized.  I might even go to the Clericzilla or perhaps his Favored Soul little brother.

For whatever its worth, the Bard character suggested I roll up a druid and the GM would even allow me to wave the deforestation thing on a Blighter, but I'm not sure that's worth it.

Any suggestions as long as I'm going that far out?


bearsarebrown

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2010, 04:21:47 PM »
Blighter doesn't suck because of deforestation. He sucks because he's got a tiny spell list full of bad spells.

If the DM let Blighters cast from the Druid spell list, now that would be good and make an awesome double 9s build.

sombrastewart

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Re: Scion of the Hells build
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2010, 12:12:12 AM »
Alright, here's an actual build I've worked on.  I want to say thank you to everyone that's talked this over with me so far.  Gear and spell selection are not complete yet.
[spoiler]
Quote
Rahvin Dusk, LE Human
Warlock 5, Ur-Priest 2, Eldritch Disciple 5

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 18
Wis: 24
Cha: 20

Fort: 14
Ref: 6
Will: 23

Feats: Combat Casting, SF: Evil, Iron Will, Extra Turning, 2 feats open (possibly for DMM Extend and Persist)

Skills: Max Concentration, other skills go to (just barely) meeting prereqs on PrCs

Eldritch Blast: 5d6
Invocations:
Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Voracious Dispelling, Dark One's Own Luck, Entropic Warding, Baleful Utterance
Fiendish Resilience 1, Detect Magic

Gear: Cloak of Cha +4, Periapt of Wis +4, Vest of Resist +3, Artificier's Monocle

Eldritch Disciple gifts: Placeholders as DR and Fiendish Resilience
[/spoiler]

That's the first one, and honestly, I don't think it brings a whole in the way of oomph, given that it seems like the best choice would be support spells out of the cleric casting and bringing offense with the warlock stuff.
[spoiler]
Quote
Favored Soul
Str: 10
Dex: 8
Con: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 16
Cha: 20

Resist Fire: 10, Deity's Favor option
BAB: 9/4
Base Saves: +8

Feats:
Combat Casting, Shielded Casting, Somatic Weaponry, 3 open feats

Spells Known:
0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Create Water, Purify Food/Drink, Cure/Inflict Minor

1: Sign, Divine Favor, Lesser Vigor, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Protection from Good

2: Hold Person, Bull Strength, Undetectable Alignment, Silence, Shatter, Zone of Truth

3: Magic Circle Against Good, Mass Resist Energy, Divine Retaliation, Magic Vestment, Searing Light, Open Spell

4: Restoration, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Assay Spell Resistance

5: Righteous Might, True Seeing, Slay Living, Open Spell

6: Heal, Energy Immunity, Superior Resistance
[/spoiler]