Author Topic: Reworking My Warmage Batman  (Read 6386 times)

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Havok4

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2009, 03:40:10 AM »
Good point, but if you are not going for such a high BAB would other options be available?

KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2009, 03:46:46 AM »
Good point, but if you are not going for such a high BAB would other options be available?

Definitely, though not with Geomancer.  That one is more for a traditional gish, getting natural BAB.  After I reboot (damn Win98 rig...) I'll see what we've put together above and try and make a few coherent builds out of it.  I know one is 19/20 from War Weaver, and there was one that was 20/20 as well (the standard one that started it all would have been if it only had PrC Pally 1).
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2009, 08:54:45 PM »
Let's see here. 
Warmage 1/Critter Servant 10/PrC Pal 1/Contemplative 1/Sacred Ex 1/Incantatrix 4/XXX Full Caster 2 would be 20/20, have two means of autopersist, autoquicken, Sor/Wiz/Warmage/Paladin/Cleric spells, 3 Domains of our choice, and 2 free metamagic feats.  Take Planning and Pride for sure, for autorerolls on 1's and free Extend Spell at level 2 (yay, persistent at level 3 that we can't use yet), last one is fielder's choice.

Warmage 1/Critter Servant 2/War Weaver 5/Prc Pal 1/Incantrix 3/Contemplative 1/Spell Warp Sniper 5/Divine Oracle 2 gets 3 domains, evasion, nice ability to screw with spell areas, sneak attack (basically), the tapestry with Sanctum 6th's in it, and a bonus to scrying.  Slightly less gish, but still awesomesauce.  Maybe drop a level of SWS for another level of Incantatrix if we want more metamagic, assuming the capstone isn't super sexy (can't remember) but either way, it can persistify just fine as is.  Only losing 1 9th level casting over the first one, and that lost CL won't really be missed with gear/tattoos/spells/the tapestry being bad ass.  Hell, Planar Touchstone gives the slot back even.

Warmage 2/Critter Servant 2/Eldritch Knight 5/PrC Pal 1/Contemplative 1/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Abjurant Champion 4 has strong AC capabilities from abjurant armor, strong blasting capabilities from SWS, a domain, 19/20 CL, 16.25 BAB with fractions, half ass decent HP (though a good Con is manditory if you gish it up), and still can play GOD thanks to the Wizard spells.

A lot of these will be using a trick to get divine casting on an arcane class until they qualify for Contemplative, so as to use PrC Pal to advance Warmage casting.  This can later be retrained out or PsyReffed, which by the time it's an issue, is well within our means.  The last one would make a credible gish.  Now :

Warmage 1/Critter Servant 2/War Weaver 5/PrC Pal 1/Contemplative 1/Incantatrix 10.  Welcome to powerville.  19/20 with full Incantatrix, extra metamagic, the works.  Arguably only rivalled by putting Dweomerkeeper 10 on the end.  I'll have to double check to see if Contemplative can be taken before CL 10, but if it can't, take Incantatrix earlier in the builds.  Problem solved!
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2009, 02:08:14 AM »
IMO, using things listed in the adaptation section that aren't specifically defined is just half a step away from homebrew.
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Archmage Joda

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2009, 03:23:28 AM »
While that notion obviously goes against the domain cherry picking, does it gray the shades of anything else in those builds?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2009, 03:33:33 AM »
IMO, using things listed in the adaptation section that aren't specifically defined is just half a step away from homebrew.

I call that creative liscense myself :)  Besides, you're part of the reason this has been resurrected with your work on my builds thread and the familiar abusing path to infinite feats (loved the wording on that btw).  Next up : the gish one above is only an example...I KNOW we can do better than that.  Abjurant Champion is a gimme, and EK was basically filler to up BAB.  If we only had one level each of Warmage and Contemplative, and the rest 3/4 with 5 AC and 1 PrC Pal, that'd be BAB 15, 16 fractionally.  Other than Geomancer, know of any really good 3/4 gish class that are 10/10 casting?
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2009, 03:40:19 AM »
IMO, using things listed in the adaptation section that aren't specifically defined is just half a step away from homebrew.

I call that creative liscense myself :)  Besides, you're part of the reason this has been resurrected with your work on my builds thread and the familiar abusing path to infinite feats (loved the wording on that btw).  Next up : the gish one above is only an example...I KNOW we can do better than that.  Abjurant Champion is a gimme, and EK was basically filler to up BAB.  If we only had one level each of Warmage and Contemplative, and the rest 3/4 with 5 AC and 1 PrC Pal, that'd be BAB 15, 16 fractionally.  Other than Geomancer, know of any really good 3/4 gish class that are 10/10 casting?
Renegade Mastermaker combined with incarnate construct?  Not really 10/10, but close enough for government work.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2009, 04:41:43 AM »
IMO, using things listed in the adaptation section that aren't specifically defined is just half a step away from homebrew.

I call that creative liscense myself :)  Besides, you're part of the reason this has been resurrected with your work on my builds thread and the familiar abusing path to infinite feats (loved the wording on that btw).  Next up : the gish one above is only an example...I KNOW we can do better than that.  Abjurant Champion is a gimme, and EK was basically filler to up BAB.  If we only had one level each of Warmage and Contemplative, and the rest 3/4 with 5 AC and 1 PrC Pal, that'd be BAB 15, 16 fractionally.  Other than Geomancer, know of any really good 3/4 gish class that are 10/10 casting?
Renegade Mastermaker combined with incarnate construct?  Not really 10/10, but close enough for government work.

That might actually be what I use for a Transformer later :P  I did find the Lion of Talisid, which would make for a nasty gish given mirror move tech to nab Improved Rapidstrike with pounce.  There was also the Ruathmari Battlemage or somesuch I wanna look into, with it's limited spell channeling.  Wasn't there also a wind based PrC from Defenders of the Faith that was never updated that's 10/10 and full BAB?  Like the Windwalker?
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Havok4

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2009, 02:10:06 PM »
Would it be possible to make a skill monkey version of this build, possibly using a beguiler base?

Unbeliever

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2009, 08:22:11 PM »
I'm sorry to be obtuse, but could you give me the basic idea of how this warmage trick works?  Preferably the least rules controversial version.  I'd be pretty happy w/ a warmage that had full wizard or cleric + warmage + paladin casting!

KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2009, 08:28:52 PM »
I'm sorry to be obtuse, but could you give me the basic idea of how this warmage trick works?  Preferably the least rules controversial version.  I'd be pretty happy w/ a warmage that had full wizard or cleric + warmage + paladin casting!

Dragon Magic lets a class that shares a list take a class specific feat (initiate feats, paladin list feats, deity feats, etc).  PrC Paladin level 1 advances spellcasting.  Once 4 levels of casting including PrC Pal exist, you qualify for Sword of the Arcane Order, and once one is taken (also available from the first level), you qualify for Battle Blessing.  Both apply to Warmage slots because that is your spell progression, it just also happens to be your Paladin progression, as you took Paladin as a PrC, not a base class.  Contemplative gives the Cleric list the same way, plus a domain.  The less fishy way to get the Cleric list is 10 levels of Rainbow Servant, though it has an adaptation giving you creative liscense to change the creature, and thus the domains.  I still include 2 levels of it in most of these builds, as A)it's enterable at level 2 with the right feats, and B)it gives a domain and is also full casting.

As for a skill monkey version...the build earlier would have decent skills with 5 levels of Spellwarp Sniper, and also if you made one using Unseen Seer or Loremaster, same thing.  Skills will mainly be high from high Int and use of spells to get a high check on any skill check when needed.
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Dragonamedrake

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2010, 03:06:26 PM »
Im surprised no one ever uses ArchMage from FR for any of these builds. Seeing as a Batman is all about utility some of the High Arcana just seems to good to pass up.

Arcane Reach - touch spells become range 30... you can really break this with some touch spells.
Master of Counterspelling - Used with Duelward this is a feat free Mage killer
Mastery of Elements - Sonic Damage anyone.
Mastery of Shaping - Horribly broken if used correctly. Think about spells like Prismatic Spray. Shape it and hit someone with ALL of the colors. ouch!

I know some MetaMagics mimic allot of these but this allows you to do it to ALL your spells for FREE with no feat investment. Taking all of them would cause you to loose One 8th level spell, 2 7th level spells, and one 6th. Not a bad trade off for a class that gets so many spells.

A possible build.

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 6/Sacred Exorcist 1/PrC Paladin 1/Rainbow Servant 4/Incantrix 1/ArchMage 3/Incantrix 3

Feats: 2 Flaws
1   Versatile Spellcaster
1   Iron Will
1   Extend Spell
3   Persistant Spell
6   Sword of the Arcane Order
9   Battle Blessing
12  Empower Spell
14  Chain Spell (Incantrix Meta)
16  DMM Persist
20  Accelerate Metamagic
20  Twin Spell (Incantrix Meta)

High Arcana chosen:
Master of Elements
Master of Shaping
Arcane Reach

You can always take one less level of Incantrix and get Master of Counterspelling. I do have a few questions though. How are some of your builds taking PrC Paly without taking Sacred Exorcist. As far as I can tell you dont have Turn Undead. Second whats a great template/race I can throw on this build. I cant find anything with a big increase to CHA... Anthromophic certainly doesnt work. Unseelie Fey Lesser Assimar is +4 CHA but you have to be evil which doest work with the whole Mystra thing. So what do you think?

Havok4

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2010, 03:18:08 PM »
Phrenic for additional combat abilities, +4 to cha, and power resistance.

Dragonamedrake

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2010, 03:36:54 PM »
Well i was looking for along the lines of a +0 Template... Most the DM's I play with dont really use level buy off.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2010, 07:38:31 PM »
Im surprised no one ever uses ArchMage from FR for any of these builds. Seeing as a Batman is all about utility some of the High Arcana just seems to good to pass up.

Arcane Reach - touch spells become range 30... you can really break this with some touch spells.
Master of Counterspelling - Used with Duelward this is a feat free Mage killer
Mastery of Elements - Sonic Damage anyone.
Mastery of Shaping - Horribly broken if used correctly. Think about spells like Prismatic Spray. Shape it and hit someone with ALL of the colors. ouch!

I know some MetaMagics mimic allot of these but this allows you to do it to ALL your spells for FREE with no feat investment. Taking all of them would cause you to loose One 8th level spell, 2 7th level spells, and one 6th. Not a bad trade off for a class that gets so many spells.

A possible build.

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 6/Sacred Exorcist 1/PrC Paladin 1/Rainbow Servant 4/Incantrix 1/ArchMage 3/Incantrix 3

Feats: 2 Flaws
1   Versatile Spellcaster
1   Iron Will
1   Extend Spell
3   Persistant Spell
6   Sword of the Arcane Order
9   Battle Blessing
12  Empower Spell
14  Chain Spell (Incantrix Meta)
16  DMM Persist
20  Accelerate Metamagic
20  Twin Spell (Incantrix Meta)

High Arcana chosen:
Master of Elements
Master of Shaping
Arcane Reach

You can always take one less level of Incantrix and get Master of Counterspelling. I do have a few questions though. How are some of your builds taking PrC Paly without taking Sacred Exorcist. As far as I can tell you dont have Turn Undead. Second whats a great template/race I can throw on this build. I cant find anything with a big increase to CHA... Anthromophic certainly doesnt work. Unseelie Fey Lesser Assimar is +4 CHA but you have to be evil which doest work with the whole Mystra thing. So what do you think?

Assuming no swapping up of levels of my initial 3-10 levels, Planar Touchstone can nab the domain power of the Sun domain, granting turning.  I hadn't thought of SacEx really, though that does make the process less drawn out.  Easier than relying on a toy that is better served being versatile as opposed to tied down to meet a requisite.  Though technically as of PHBII once I have turning from another source, it's self-sustaining and thus frees up PT.
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Dragonamedrake

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2010, 07:36:41 AM »
Ahh well what do you think of Arch Mage... I cant find a 3.5 addition in any of my books btw. Anyone know if its been updated? Also I forgot the pre req of a crafting feat so I would need to throw Craft Contengent spell in there somewhere.

Either way thanks for the update. This has got to be one of my favorite builds so far these boards. Im currently playing one in a game and the versatility is really impressive. I always hated keeping up with a spell list on Wizards and hated the limited spell choice on a Sorc... this way I just bring my PHB, Spell compendium, ect to game... what i need when I need it. You've made a real gem imo.


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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2010, 02:39:00 PM »
Other than Geomancer, know of any really good 3/4 gish class that are 10/10 casting?

Raumathari Battlemage is 3/4 BAB and 9/10 casting, with 4/4 for the first four levels.
Painful entry requirements, wouldn't call it really good. Unapproachable East.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2010, 01:41:53 AM »
Other than Geomancer, know of any really good 3/4 gish class that are 10/10 casting?

Raumathari Battlemage is 3/4 BAB and 9/10 casting, with 4/4 for the first four levels.
Painful entry requirements, wouldn't call it really good. Unapproachable East.

Also has the Master of the Yuirwood, which was my prefered 10/10 3/4 over Geomancer initially, but looking at prereq's, it's just not doable.  It can't be entered until level 8 without eating up feats we don't have.  Geomancer at least adds unique capabilities, including Ex Flight and Pounce, and it can also boost sagging saves.  I'll have to see if it's possible to pick up a means of getting the nice abilities while still dipping a couple things (notably Spelldancer for Spelldance to autopersist).
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