Abusing Extract Gift

[Tenebrous Apostate]

For those of you that don't know the spell named "extract gift" let me fill you in quickly. It is a 5th level Necromany spell from Findish Codex 1 (armys of the Abyss) that alows a caster to take a bound or willing demon and impart fragments oh the demon's abilities or skill ranks as permanent bonuses in another creatures abilities or skills. The Demon if non-willing can resist the spell via SR or a will save (of wich the DC can elevate by giving the demon subtle influence over the mortal recipient). The problem I recently bypassed is that of the obscene material component and xp cost requirments (by spell stiching the spell of course  ). Now I have some issuse I'd like to talk about. First of all doe anyone have any idea if the same demon can be used more than once (the spell does not clarify. I guess with such hefty components someone thought it won't be much used)? How can I convince demons to be "willing" to participate in the spell? and as a matter of fact wich demons do you suggest I use? I have a few ideas but I'd love o hear your thoughts on the matter. Pls people.. feel free to go crazy 

[OblivionSmurf83]

Why do you want the Demon to be willing? Most primary spellcasters will be able to beat their will save. Just Planar Bind the thing, and call it a day.

[bearsarebrown]

keep planar binding them until they fail the save.

[Tenebrous Apostate]

If the Demon is not willsing he saves for the Extract gift. To increse the DC you give th demon power over the other target of the spell. most demons have very good will saves

[OblivionSmurf83]

+19 seems to be the highest Will Save in the SRD, for a Balor. That's not that tricky to beat, I should think, if you've got ways of increasing your save DC...

[OblivionSmurf83]

To be more accurate regarding the above, a 9th level Wizard should easily be able to get an Int of 28. This translates to a save DC of 24, for a 5th level spell.

If a Balor's Will save is +19, he'll need to roll 5 or above to save, ie he'll fail his save 25% of the time. Cast the spell 5 times in a row, and he'll fail it around 76% of the time.

Of course you won't be binding Balors at 9th level, since you'll only be able to bind creatures of up to 6HD. From the SRD, the Demon with 6HD or under that has the highest will save is the Succubus, which has a Will save of +7. Ie, our lovely Succubus subject needs to roll 17 or above to save. Chances are she'll fail.

In fact, given that Planar Binding only goes up to creatures of 18HD, you'll never need to worry about something like a Balor anyways, unless you're using Gate to bring them in. A 17th level Wizard, with unlimited time to prepare, knowing exactly what they're about to do, should be unstoppable, to be blunt.

[KellKheraptis]

To be more accurate regarding the above, a 9th level Wizard should easily be able to get an Int of 28. This translates to a save DC of 24, for a 5th level spell.

If a Balor's Will save is +19, he'll need to roll 5 or above to save, ie he'll fail his save 25% of the time. Cast the spell 5 times in a row, and he'll fail it around 76% of the time.

Of course you won't be binding Balors at 9th level, since you'll only be able to bind creatures of up to 6HD. From the SRD, the Demon with 6HD or under that has the highest will save is the Succubus, which has a Will save of +7. Ie, our lovely Succubus subject needs to roll 17 or above to save. Chances are she'll fail.

In fact, given that Planar Binding only goes up to creatures of 18HD, you'll never need to worry about something like a Balor anyways, unless you're using Gate to bring them in. A 17th level Wizard, with unlimited time to prepare, knowing exactly what they're about to do, should be unstoppable, to be blunt.

This is one more reason why the Red Wizards are scary...since they can do this at level 10 with the right feats and setup O.o

[deuxhero]

@OblivionSmurf83 There are a lot of ways to boost HD for PB, the Malconvoker and some background feat both work for it.

Actually, the The Malconvoker handbook goes into detail on how to nuke a bound creatures saves.

[OblivionSmurf83]

DeuxHero, broken link there I think, but cheers for the heads up, I'll go off and read the handbook

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

This is one more reason why the Red Wizards are scary

who's red wizard?

[DavidWL]

This is one more reason why the Red Wizards are scary

who's red wizard?

A prestige class that gets circle magic from FR.

Best,
David

[KellKheraptis]

This is one more reason why the Red Wizards are scary

who's red wizard?

And for the record, mine are usually also at least Incantatrices, sometimes also SCM's.  My Halruuans are even worse though

[deuxhero]

DeuxHero, broken link there I think, but cheers for the heads up, I'll go off and read the handbook

here is a link that works

[awaken DM golem]

I got a chance to look at it. Nice.
Has the standard problem of being a Permanent change; it can be dispelled.
But what the heck, you're gonna do a small pile of these.
I didn't read it close enough to determine if the 20th level clauses are hard fast limits.
Looks like a +5 to each stat is within reach, so long as Planar Binding or Gate can get a Stat 30 demon to behave.
Looks like a +10 to most Skills is within reach, but not all of them.

Erudite Spell to Power can use Linked Power to do both Extract Gift, and any Planar Binding, faster.

[Amechra]

I got a chance to look at it. Nice.
Has the standard problem of being a Permanent change; it can be dispelled.
But what the heck, you're gonna do a small pile of these.
I didn't read it close enough to determine if the 20th level clauses are hard fast limits.
Looks like a +5 to each stat is within reach, so long as Planar Binding or Gate can get a Stat 30 demon to behave.
Looks like a +10 to most Skills is within reach, but not all of them.

Erudite Spell to Power can use Linked Power to do both Extract Gift, and any Planar Binding, faster.

Could you take Supernatural Transformation to turn the spell-like into a supernatural ability; find a way to get an SLA of an Irresistible Extract Gift. Then laugh as your Supernatural Ability goes through any and every defense they have.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I got a chance to look at it. Nice.
Has the standard problem of being a Permanent change; it can be dispelled.
But what the heck, you're gonna do a small pile of these.
I didn't read it close enough to determine if the 20th level clauses are hard fast limits.
Looks like a +5 to each stat is within reach, so long as Planar Binding or Gate can get a Stat 30 demon to behave.
Looks like a +10 to most Skills is within reach, but not all of them.

Erudite Spell to Power can use Linked Power to do both Extract Gift, and any Planar Binding, faster.

Could you take Supernatural Transformation to turn the spell-like into a supernatural ability; find a way to get an SLA of an Irresistible Extract Gift. Then laugh as your Supernatural Ability goes through any and every defense they have.

Irresitiable is updated to just add 10 to the DC.

[Amechra]

I got a chance to look at it. Nice.
Has the standard problem of being a Permanent change; it can be dispelled.
But what the heck, you're gonna do a small pile of these.
I didn't read it close enough to determine if the 20th level clauses are hard fast limits.
Looks like a +5 to each stat is within reach, so long as Planar Binding or Gate can get a Stat 30 demon to behave.
Looks like a +10 to most Skills is within reach, but not all of them.

Erudite Spell to Power can use Linked Power to do both Extract Gift, and any Planar Binding, faster.

Could you take Supernatural Transformation to turn the spell-like into a supernatural ability; find a way to get an SLA of an Irresistible Extract Gift. Then laugh as your Supernatural Ability goes through any and every defense they have.

Irresitiable is updated to just add 10 to the DC.

Awwwwww. Oh, well, at least you get to laugh at the massive costs the thing requires.

Too bad Outsiders don't sleep. Is there a way to make them sleep?

[awaken DM golem]

Even if they don't sleep, they know what the concept is, from all those fun corruptions they did.
Suggestion or Charm or better, can get them to act it, in essence having the same effect.

+10 to DC ... sigh ... not quite the thrill it used to be ... 

[Ramaloke]

The best use of extract gift is if you are a demon or your cohort/familiar/friend/cousin is a demon. Get them to agree and use the +DC effects for benefit.

Have your Demon Pal auto fail on a fully buffed extract gift, now he's got a boat load of effects to monitor the "beneficiary" of the spell.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The best use of extract gift is if you are a demon or your cohort/familiar/friend/cousin is a demon. Get them to agree and use the +DC effects for benefit.

Have your Demon Pal auto fail on a fully buffed extract gift, now he's got a boat load of effects to monitor the "beneficiary" of the spell.

They still get a save for the demand right? There are better ways of telepathy.

A competence for the skills is nice, but the enhancement bonuses are worse than a belt of magnificence (albeit cheaper). This doesn't seem awesome to me.