Help Optimizing a Weird Paladin/Divine Crusader

[Phaenix]

If only Extra Smite added to all your Smite pools.

I thought it did?

It really should, considering that Turn Undead is generally more powerful, and you get 4 to each pool with Extra Turning. But unlike Extra Turning, which explicitly states that it applies to all your pools, Extra Smiting states that you get "two extra smite attempts per day. Use whatever smite ability you have." Maybe it's just my reading, but it seems to me that it gives you two smite attempts that you can use for any of your smite pools, as opposed to all.

Again, fairness-wise, I'd rule it applied to all if I were DMing, but that doesn't seem to be RAW.

Awesome find! I took a look at Awesome smite, it's great. I like the Overwhelming Smite ability that lets you do damage then make a trip attempt. Can you imagine if you hooked that up with Improved Trip? Charge -> Smite -> Trip -> Hit. You might have found the seed for a smite based tripper build.

That build would burn through smites like crazy. May I suggest the Holy Warrior Paladin ACF (also in CC, pg. 49) to snag an Extra Smiting feat? Or to pick up power attack and grab something more general with your normal feat slot.

[DerWille]

I can see combining that ACF with Pious Templar for alot of fun. And it would burn through smite attempts like crazy, but that's where Ordained Champion comes in. At level 2 as a swift action you can convert a turn undead attempt into a smite attempt. So the naturally high charisma of a Divine Crusader + Nightstick + Holy Requilatory Symbol should be giving 12 or so smites a day.

 Man I'm picturing this trip thing using Lion Totem Barbarian, Ordained Champion, Champion of Gwynharwyf on a charger some awesome damage. Smite -> Trip -> Hit -> Rest of the charge attacks are now at a +4.

[Azrael]

For a defensive option go for these feats.

Divine Defiance + Divine Countermagic = Ability to counterspell anything.

Quicken Turning + Divine Vigor = shield of temporary hp every round.

That divine feat in ToB that allows you to spend a turn attempt as an immediate action to heal hp.

If you get spell domain you can use anyspell to prepare a polymorph spell and pick up that reserve feat Minor Shapechange for more temp HP. Combine it with the quicken turning and divine vigor and you get 4x your level in temporary hp every round (if you need it).

You can also use the other anyspell to prepare a vigor (combined with augment healing and that eberron feat for elves which gives you an 'augment healing-like' effect) and persist it using divine metamagic for healing every round.

For extra defense you can pick up divine resistance and/or divine shield.

Its not the BEST you can do with a pally/crusader but it's an interesting trick your DM probably won't have any problems with. I think I have a build somewhere that does this which can survive over 100 points of damage every round without actually losing any HP. This, combined with countering ability and your high saves makes you pretty tough to kill.

[Surreal]

The wording on the Sapphire Smite feat (Magic of Incarnum) might allow it to apply to all your different pools of smiting.

A Killoren (RotW) Binder w/Andras might have some reasonable endurance as a smiter. One smite per hour, one smite per 5/rounds, who knows how the heck those interact with extra smite or sapphire smite.

Just throwing stuff together and totally not optimized: Killoren Paladin 4/Ordained Champion 2/Incarnate 3/Binder 1/Knight of the Sacred Seal 4/Crusader 6
feats: extra smite, bonus essentia, sapphire smite, improved binding, whatever
smites from: paladin, crusader, binder (Andras), Killoren aspect of the destroyer, burn turns attempts for more smites, plus however the heck extra smite and sapphire smite give you extras
- somewhere in there you have decent early survivability with crusader martial spirit and incarnate therapeutic mantle
- I think you can pick up a 6th level maneuver near the end
- 7th level binding

edit: hmm, might work better with a cleric dip into prestige paladin

[DerWille]

 I should mention that Ordained Champion smites are different than most. Their damage isn't based off of Paladin levels, but instead your effective turning level. So I wouldn't expect too much damage out of them. However they're awesome to use as battlefield control smites.

 I don't know much about turning except that you never use it and instead use them to fuel other feats. How hard is it to get this Paladin's effective turning level above 15?

[ninjarabbit]

I like paladin5/pioustemplar4/divinecrusader1/fistofraziel10

8 smites/day as a 19th level paladin with the FoR goodies and 9th level spells in one domain

[InnaBinder]

I like paladin5/pioustemplar4/divinecrusader1/fistofraziel10

8 smites/day as a 19th level paladin with the FoR goodies and 9th level spells in one domain

Using this with Girru as the deity for the Magic domain that I covet with an actual weapon is looking like the frontrunner.  Thanks to everyone, and keep the ideas rolling.

[Phaenix]

I can see combining that ACF with Pious Templar for alot of fun. And it would burn through smite attempts like crazy, but that's where Ordained Champion comes in. At level 2 as a swift action you can convert a turn undead attempt into a smite attempt. So the naturally high charisma of a Divine Crusader + Nightstick + Holy Requilatory Symbol should be giving 12 or so smites a day.

Whoa. That adds a lot of longevity to this type of build. Nice one.

The wording on the Sapphire Smite feat (Magic of Incarnum) might allow it to apply to all your different pools of smiting.

A Killoren (RotW) Binder w/Andras might have some reasonable endurance as a smiter. One smite per hour, one smite per 5/rounds, who knows how the heck those interact with extra smite or sapphire smite.

Just throwing stuff together and totally not optimized: Killoren Paladin 4/Ordained Champion 2/Incarnate 3/Binder 1/Knight of the Sacred Seal 4/Crusader 6
feats: extra smite, bonus essentia, sapphire smite, improved binding, whatever
smites from: paladin, crusader, binder (Andras), Killoren aspect of the destroyer, burn turns attempts for more smites, plus however the heck extra smite and sapphire smite give you extras
- somewhere in there you have decent early survivability with crusader martial spirit and incarnate therapeutic mantle
- I think you can pick up a 6th level maneuver near the end
- 7th level binding

edit: hmm, might work better with a cleric dip into prestige paladin

Hey, get up to 8th level binding and make your other vestige Tenebrous. 1 turn every 5 rounds gives you even more smites!

Maybe (variant) Paladin 4/Binder 1/KoSS 4/Divine Crusader 1/Ordained Champion 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Full Casting PrC 3

Gets a hell of a lot of mileage out of one Weapon Focus feat. Needs Awesome Smite, Improved Smiting, Improved binding (at least temporarily), Power Attack. 2 free Smites every 5 rounds. Manages 9th level spells by level 20 and BAB 16 if you go back into Divine Crusader for your last 3 levels.

I like paladin5/pioustemplar4/divinecrusader1/fistofraziel10

8 smites/day as a 19th level paladin with the FoR goodies and 9th level spells in one domain

Using this with Girru as the deity for the Magic domain that I covet with an actual weapon is looking like the frontrunner.  Thanks to everyone, and keep the ideas rolling.

While we're looking at Pious Templar, everyone else sees that it grants fighter feats at 4th and 8th level, right? As bonus feats? I recall being somewhat convinced that bonus feats don't require you to meet prerequisites unless they specifically call out that you do. The only limitations here are on weapon-specific feats. Isn't it a shame that Weapon Supremacy, despite requiring Fighter 18, is not a Fighter bonus feat? Bollocks!

Also, Pious Templar's Smite ability seems to both grant you smites and give extra uses of other smites (and this one looks like it applies to smites from each different pool).

[DerWille]

Nice find Phaenix, I was going to reply saying that you need to normally meet the prerequisites and la la la, but it doesn't have that line in there. Nor does it say that you don't need to meet the prerequisites, so it's sort of a gray area.  If it does let you not have to meet the prerequisites then... then Pious Templar just became an amazing Paladin PrC for at least 4 levels.

 So for a more smite centric build then...

Passive Way Monk 2/Paladin 4/Pious Templar 4/Divine Crusader 1/Ordained Champion 2/Fist of Raziel 7

Feats would be something like:

1) Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, True Believer
2) Improved Trip
3) Weapon Focus: Something
6) Awesome Smite
9) Leap Attack
10) Shock Trooper (Ignoring all prerequisites)
12) Something
15) Holy Warrior
18) Something

 Although the 4 levels of Paladin don't feel all that necessary. I'm not too familiar with Paladin ACFs but taking only 2 levels instead and then using Fighter for two more feats could allow us to knock off 2 levels of Pious Templar for some more Fist of Raziel or some other domain granting class.

[Phaenix]

Well, the 4th level of Paladin grants you Turn Undead, which is why we want the Ordained Champion levels. Also, the Holy Warrior ACF allows you to trade out the single 1st-level Paladin spell you'd get at 4th for a feat from a decent list. That said, a Cleric Dip could make good use of the Ordained Champion levels as well, since you can trade domain granted powers for Fighter feats.

[DerWille]

Ah that's right. We could make those turn undead attempts up by going into Sacred Exorcist but that'll require the good domain and best gotten with the Sovereign Speaker. So Paladin 4 it is.

[Agita]

Hey, get up to 8th level binding and make your other vestige Tenebrous. 1 turn every 5 rounds gives you even more smites!

Maybe (variant) Paladin 4/Binder 1/KoSS 4/Divine Crusader 1/Ordained Champion 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Full Casting PrC 3

Gets a hell of a lot of mileage out of one Weapon Focus feat. Needs Awesome Smite, Improved Smiting, Improved binding (at least temporarily), Power Attack. 2 free Smites every 5 rounds. Manages 9th level spells by level 20 and BAB 16 if you go back into Divine Crusader for your last 3 levels.

I see a teensy problem with this build - with just one level of Binder+Imp Binding, you can't bind Andras or Tenebrous and thus can't choose them as your patron vestige. So with Andras+Tenebrous, you're not binding your patron and thus lose all abilities you get from KotSS, unless the DM allows you to retrain what vestige you're 'devoted' to.

[altpersona]

ima be a prick and suggest non lg cleric vice lg paladin. just my 2c.


edit: were all ignoring the core paladin alternative, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm


so thats 4c.  


6   pally 6               bab 6
7   bg 1                  bab 7 /
9   div crusader 2    bab 8   trickery
10   seeker otmi 7     bab13   trickery / travel / magic    (your lvl 16 w/ 9th lvl spells yay)
17    contemplative 1                       trickery / travel / magic/XXXX
18    warpriest 1                trickery / travel / magic/xxxx/xxxx
20    hierophant 2

seeker of the mysty isle reqs elf, so worshiping lolth works well. might want to get PaO to a drow first.. can sub nerull , erythnul or tiamat  if your a kobald ( )  fav weapons being whip, morningstar , heavy pick or scythe.

if not elf, sub contemplative 6 for seeker 7. frees up 2 more lvls for toys.

sla timestop and G.teleport 2x day.

this of course presumes that adding domains via prcs add to your casting options. if that gets shot down, then CD has an app, er feat for that, arcane disciple. might have to try to take it twice.. if you can.. otherwise drop warpriest and take more hiero or dip ToB or damn near anything..

[Phaenix]

Hey, get up to 8th level binding and make your other vestige Tenebrous. 1 turn every 5 rounds gives you even more smites!

Maybe (variant) Paladin 4/Binder 1/KoSS 4/Divine Crusader 1/Ordained Champion 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Full Casting PrC 3

Gets a hell of a lot of mileage out of one Weapon Focus feat. Needs Awesome Smite, Improved Smiting, Improved binding (at least temporarily), Power Attack. 2 free Smites every 5 rounds. Manages 9th level spells by level 20 and BAB 16 if you go back into Divine Crusader for your last 3 levels.

I see a teensy problem with this build - with just one level of Binder+Imp Binding, you can't bind Andras or Tenebrous and thus can't choose them as your patron vestige. So with Andras+Tenebrous, you're not binding your patron and thus lose all abilities you get from KotSS, unless the DM allows you to retrain what vestige you're 'devoted' to.

Good catch - I put the build together in about 5 minutes, and I only looked for 4th level vestiges, didn't think it all the way through. That might be something a moderately generous DM would allow, but certainly not something we can count on. That build also requires a non-good Paladin variant, which might run contrary to many folks' idea of a 'Paladin.'