Author Topic: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV  (Read 5720 times)

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Glutton

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Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« on: December 22, 2009, 12:21:42 AM »
After just delving into the bo9s finally, I've decided my next pathfinder character will be a ruby knight vindicator (flavour adapted to the resident god of war). I've also decided that I want to favor the maneuver heavy entrance. As such here is what I have come up with.

Race Human: Stats s18/d12/c14/w13/i10/c14

Crusader
Cleric
Crusader
Crusader
Crusader
RKV until 15th.

Our games tend to end around 15th-16th level as our DM really isn't comfortable past 12th level (he really doesnt have a firm concept of spells passed 6th level. I forgive him, he's awesome) so optimizing for the old Miracle Giant Size is out the door. Other party members are: A rogue/paladin/shadowbane inquisitor, summoner/elemental druid, and a dragonfire adept. As a break down I have:

1st level: Flaw (Shaky) Feats: Stone Power, Extra Granted Maneuver, Combat Reflexes
             Maneuvers: Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, Douse the flames   Stance: Martial Spirit

2nd level: Cleric Domains: Strength and War, Alternate Class Feature: Spontaneous Domain (Strength). Domain powers are useless cross classed like this and I would love some way to lose them for something and keep the domain spells. I chose strength and war for Enlarge Person, Divine power, and Righteous Might spontaneous.

3rd level: Feat (pathfinder gives every odd level) Ancestral Relic. This ones pretty much a given as the DM isn't terribley thrilled about custom items or tailoring drops OR magic marts and it appears to me with Stone Power and Power attack going I'm going to need a good plus to hit, so I will be enchanting my greatsword with Devoted Spirit and Stone dragon (possibley White Raven as well) for the massive hit bonus's.
  Stance: Leading the Charge.

4th level: Maneuver: Foehammer

5th level : Feat: Standstill (note the pathfinder version is not based and reflex versus damage dealt, just a CMB vs CMD check)  Maneuver Swap Douse the Flames --> Mountain Hammer

6th level : Stance: Thicket of Blades

7th Level: Feat : Power Attack  Maneuver: Revitalizing Strike (or White Raven Tactics, possiblely from crown of the white raven)

9th level: Feat (open) Maneuver: Divine Surge (or white raven strike, unsure)

11th level: feat: (open) maneuver Shadow Stride  Stance: Press the advantage (unsure about this one, looking for something to use when im not in thicket)

13th level: feat: Robilars Gambit  Maneuver Rallying Strike

15th level feat (open)   maneuver: Castigating Strike (or ancient mountain hammer)

What I'm turning to you for help for is what to do with my three open feats, as well as some commentary on my maneuver selection. I've never actually used maneuvers in a game so I'm not exactly sure which will be best used by this character. Also, any possible ACF's that might be useful for my 1 level cleric dip would be helpful.

Thoughts on the three feats: I was thinking about filling them with Martial Study, Extra Turning, and Holy Warrior. I would be open to taking another flaw if needed.

Any advice from anyone who has previously played around with alternate maneuvers would be highly welcome as well (I've considered taking martial study twice for iron heart surge, but am unsure if this would be a good plan)

Thanks!

« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 12:39:52 AM by Glutton »

juton

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 01:41:27 AM »
I really really love the Holy Warrior feat, but it's better on straight clerics, and if you are leveraging multiple attacks. On your Crusader build you'll end up adding 4 damage a hit at level 13 when you get it, you can do better than that.

Also you take Combat Reflexes and get Thicket of Blades, why don't you have a reach weapon? If you want to keep your great sword you can take the Lunge feat, it works fairly well I've found.

You may want to pick up Practiced Spell caster. I'm not definite though, your Crusader abilities are going to overshadow your Cleric abilities, it would be handy for upping the duration of your buffs though.

Glutton

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2009, 01:58:40 AM »
on holy warrior: Yeah you're right, it's also not comming into play until 15th level (13th is robilars)

on CR and ToB: I intend to be Enlarge Person'd every fight via the strength domain and Domain spontaini.. spontaa... spoon? However Lunge is very good and I had forgotten it, maybe ill pencil that in.

practiced spellcaster: very possible, we are also playing with traits and one of them is +2 caster level.

kevin_video

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 03:35:27 AM »
While I didn't see anything on the Ruby Knight on the Paizo site, there was an excerpt from the creators of the classes from Bo9S saying that for Pathfinder, not much had to be changed for the base classes, except maybe HD. The Crusader should have d12. Then it goes on to say how they overpowered the classes for regular 3.5, and how we should take them down a notch (ie d10 for warblade, and no getting back your maneuvers during combat). But you think I could find the thread that said all of this? No. But it is true.

As for the Ruby Knight, my guess would be d10 HD, much like the new Eldritch Knight. This is in accordance to the updating rules of Pathfinder. If it has full BAB, it has at least d10.

Don't forget to update the skills.
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juton

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 04:05:30 AM »
While I didn't see anything on the Ruby Knight on the Paizo site, there was an excerpt from the creators of the classes from Bo9S saying that for Pathfinder, not much had to be changed for the base classes, except maybe HD. The Crusader should have d12. Then it goes on to say how they overpowered the classes for regular 3.5, and how we should take them down a notch (ie d10 for warblade, and no getting back your maneuvers during combat). But you think I could find the thread that said all of this? No. But it is true.

As for the Ruby Knight, my guess would be d10 HD, much like the new Eldritch Knight. This is in accordance to the updating rules of Pathfinder. If it has full BAB, it has at least d10.

Don't forget to update the skills.

Could you find a link to this, I've never heard anyone making comments like these. I'm a little skeptical because their definition of 'overly powerful' is the same as 'balanced' in my neck of the woods.

kevin_video

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 05:03:59 AM »
Could you find a link to this, I've never heard anyone making comments like these. I'm a little skeptical because their definition of 'overly powerful' is the same as 'balanced' in my neck of the woods.
A link for what comments? I'll look for the thread regarding lowering them, but other than that, I'm not 100% sure of what you're asking.

Took me a while, but I went through just about every thread trying to find it, and I finally did. Well, partially. This is one of the ones I was thinking of. Still looking through the others.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/communityContent/conversions/archives/tomeOfBattleBookOfNineSwordsInPathfinder

Rich Baker suggested after publishing the book what to do in 3.5. Namely no recharge in battle, and crusaders have readied maneuvers the same as the other two.

General: No recharge mechanic. You use up all of your readied maneuvers in an encounter, that's it, you wait until next encounter. This one was suggested by Rich Baker himself, stating that the recharge mechanic in retrospect seems like a clunky add on, and it undermines resource management.

Crusaders: Your readied maneuvers are no different than anyone else's. No "two maneuvers randomly chosen" to start. Again, this one was suggested by Rich Baker, who said that this was the "automatic recharge" mechanic for the crusader, and it turned out to make the class more complicated than it needs to be.

Warblade: Hit dice move back down to d10. These guys are suppose to be technique fighters, and while they are front line warriors, there is no need for them to be the damage sponges that barbarians and knights are, because its not really their purpose.

Cut out Weapon Aptitude as an ability. Not only does this not make much sense, but it intentionally steals the fighters only real exclusive ability, and then makes it better. If Warblades are suppose to replace fighters in your campaign, fine, but if they both exist, let the fighter have his moment in the sun and cut this out of the Warblade.


Change maneuvers being linked to Concentration, to Perception.

There's other threads as well
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Korwin

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 06:35:37 AM »
Why would you want to make Bo9S-Classes weaker.
Did'nt get Casters more powerfull in Pathfinder?

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 09:42:24 AM »
Why would you want to make Bo9S-Classes weaker.
Did'nt get Casters more powerfull in Pathfinder?

Don't try to think about it too hard.  Trying to cram "pathfinder" and "balance" into the same line of thought can only lead to weeping and gnashing of teeth.

They rebalanced the game the way they like it.  It doesn't make any sense if you don't play their style of D&D.

juton

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 01:37:40 PM »
@Kevin_video

Thanks for that link, it's very surprising. Bo9S is a big leap forward for D&D in my opinion, it saddens me that after getting something so largely right they regret it.

I guess neither WotC or Paizo are paragons of game design.

Why would you want to make Bo9S-Classes weaker.
Did'nt get Casters more powerfull in Pathfinder?

This still bugs me. Debatably Wizards got stronger, or maybe weaker or maybe ended up the same. Sorcerers got a nudge, they actually have class features now but both halves of CoDzilla got quite bit of nerfing.  There's a thread I started about it here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6370.0

kevin_video

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 01:45:07 PM »
@Kevin_video

Thanks for that link, it's very surprising. Bo9S is a big leap forward for D&D in my opinion, it saddens me that after getting something so largely right they regret it.

I guess neither WotC or Paizo are paragons of game design.
Well don't read the thread too much, especially not the other ones concerning this because it'll make your blood boil. Everyone harps on the Bo9S every chance they got, and SO many DMs have banned that book completely. I like the book. It's not unbalanced. I've got a thrikeen warblade in our campaign, and while he does considerable damage, he rarely hits. The red dragon who's only got a single level of swordsage does way more because he's a dragon with pounce, and misses less. It's only overpowered if all you have in the party are core classes. Take the PF versions, and you're good to go.
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Havok4

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 03:45:48 PM »
Those suggested nerfs seem unnecessary, given that most of the maneuvers were apparently balanced with recharge in mind you would need to basically rebalance the whole maneuver system to make it work properly.

kevin_video

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 04:06:56 PM »
Those suggested nerfs seem unnecessary, given that most of the maneuvers were apparently balanced with recharge in mind you would need to basically rebalance the whole maneuver system to make it work properly.
Don't shoot the messenger. I too was surprised when the creators had regrets in making these classes. I much prefer Mike Mearls and his upgraded Hexblade which actually became STRONGER.
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Havok4

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 04:34:47 PM »
Those suggested nerfs seem unnecessary, given that most of the maneuvers were apparently balanced with recharge in mind you would need to basically rebalance the whole maneuver system to make it work properly.
Don't shoot the messenger. I too was surprised when the creators had regrets in making these classes.
I was not commenting on you, just that the people who made that suggestion seem to underestimate the amount of changes to the game balance if you remove the recovery method. I personally would ignore those recommendations.

Glutton

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Re: Making a Pathfinder/3.5 Crusader RKV
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 10:20:17 PM »
Paired Opportunists (Combat, Tactical)
You know how to make an enemy pay for lax defenses.
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who
also has this feat, you receive a +4 circumstance
bonus on attacks of opportunity against creatures
that you both threaten. Enemies that provoke attacks
of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of
opportunity from you so long as you threaten them
(even if the situation or an ability would normally deny
you the attack of opportunity). This does not allow you
to take more than one attack of opportunity against a
creature for a given action.

Pathfinder just introduced these types of feats, the catch is your allies need to take them. However this one seems pretty strong for making a thicket of blades meat grinder with another melee.