Author Topic: Help with PF Melee Rogue  (Read 3307 times)

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Zax

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Help with PF Melee Rogue
« on: December 21, 2009, 03:21:34 AM »

Hi all,

So Summoner has been ruled out for an upcoming Pathfinder game where the whole party is drow. Upon inspecting the characters the others wish to create, the only gaps are healer (meh...) and skill monkey (ok, there's a bard... he can be the healer until we can afford, you know, items...)

So, I'll probably play a Rogue. I wanted to go primarily combat rogue, as I recently played a skill rogue (it was great fun, just want something different). We start at LVL 2 and all 3.5 official materials, and the PF books, are allowed.

I'll post the breakdown, then some commentary. Any help you could give me in answering some of my questions would be fantastic. Thanks.


Stats after pointbuy/race:

STR: 14, DEX: 19, CON: 12, INT: 14, WIS: 10, CHA: 9

Progression:

Code: [Select]
LVL Class        Feat                        Notable abilities  SA                 BAB IL
1   Rogue        Craven                                         1d6 + 1            0   0
2   Rogue                                    Bleeding Attack    1d6 + 2 (+1 bleed) 1   1
3   Swashbuckler W. Finesse (b), ?                              1d6 + 3 (+1 bleed) 1   1
4   Rogue                                    Penetrating Strike 2d6 + 4 (+2 bleed) 2   2
5   SwordSage    Weapon Foc(b), Shadow Blade                    2d6 + 5 (+2 bleed) 3   3
6   Swashbuckler                                                2d6 + 6 (+2 bleed) 4   3
7   Rogue        Daring outlaw               ? (rogue talent)   3d6 + 7 (+3 bleed) 5   4
8   SwordSage                                                   5d6 + 8 (+5 bleed) 6   5
9   Swashbuckler ?                           Int to dmg         6d6 + 9 (+6 bleed) 7   5

Key - (b) = bonus feat, SA = sneak attack damage, BAB = base attack bonus, IL = initiator level

What do I get?

By 9th level - BAB at CL-2, 3rd level maneuvers (assassins stance), int dex and str to damage, 6d6 SA plus a decent boost from Craven and Bleeding Attack

Why have I chosen this progression?

I wanted to be as effective as possible at each level. Some tradeoffs were made overall (starting at level 2 so wanted bleeding attack early as possible for flavor, hence waiting for 3rd level for finesse), but essentially, the idea was to spread out the progression evenly. Swordsage at levels 5 and 9 are the standard breakpoints, giving me level 3IL at level 5 and 5 IL at level

What should I Add/Change?

Well, quick draw/improved initiative would be nice, as would TWF. Ideally, i'd place either TWF or improved initiative at 3rd level. I have a free Rogue Talent unpicked at level 7, which could be any of the above, or something like slow reactions (heck, maybe even power attack). Something like staggering strike or another SA-based feat would be cool.

I was thinking of going Swashbuckler from here, but in hindsight, do you think it might be worthwhile dropping Swashbuckler alltogether and going rogue? It would gain me a feat instead of Daring outlaw (trade for weapon finesse, so it is a net even), lose the int bonus to damage, some bab, and saves. What it gains is access to the better talents (crippling strike, improved evasion, or choice of any feat). I'm leaning more towards the latter now, but I'm interested to see what you think.

Average damage with a short sword, with full sneak attack (minus bleeding attack), with a guess at the level of gaining magic weapons, stat increasers etc goes like this (also, no unholy/flaming etc)

Code: [Select]
LVL DMG
1   10
2   11
3   12
4   15.5
5   20.5
6   23.5
7   29
8   38
9   44.5

With 10 skill points, I will start with maxing out: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Escape Artist (questionable), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, Swim. Will go UMD at some point when I have a chance of succeeding.

Thanks for any and all help.

Glutton

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 04:06:18 AM »
If you have a bard in your party, consider getting the dazzling display feat chain so you can have him activate dirge of doom and sneak attack without that whole pesky hiding.

winter_soldier

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 03:48:39 PM »
It looks like you're taking using the 3.5 Swashbuckler, in which case I'd say forget it. Unless you're taking Darking Outlaw, in which it MIGHT be ok, but not great?

juton

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 04:51:49 PM »
Swashbuckler is nice to have for the hit die and the fort save, but it is fairly expendable. Since you're playing a PF Rouge you can give yourself Weapon Finesse as a Rouge talent at level two, I suggest you do that and move the rest of your abilities down two levels (just hitting is important at lower levels). Keep the Swordsage in their, I don't know what mix of Rogue/Swordsage you'd like but the more maneuvers the better.

Zax

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 05:51:15 PM »
Glutton - nice idea :) I'll be focusing more on flanking (have a druid and necro to give me flankers if needs be), and if I really need it I will have a maneuver to go invis.

winter_soldier - uhhh.... yeah? It's 3.5 Swash (i wasn't aware there was any other)... and if you look in my feat list you'll see daring outlaw.

juton - I like your thinking. The HP would be nice, but the key thing I wanted was to maintain high bab while progressing SA (and I like the abilities of the swashbuckler better than things like nightsong enforcer). I'd still rather keep bleeding attack at level 2 for flavor (though you are totally right about finesse being best then), so dropping swash would delay weapon finesse until level 4. Don't really need the weapon focus talent as swordsage has that covered.

Do you think it would be best to go the TWF chain if I go more SS, or move to a single weapon and take advantage of more of the maneuvers? There's a few nice ones there to significantly boost damage (more D6s lol), but they're standard attacks.

Thanks for the suggestions


juton

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 06:53:33 PM »
Do you think it would be best to go the TWF chain if I go more SS, or move to a single weapon and take advantage of more of the maneuvers? There's a few nice ones there to significantly boost damage (more D6s lol), but they're standard attacks.

Thanks for the suggestions

That depends a lot on how you want to use your character. Swordsages (and initiators in general) generally can move and use a maneuver each round. That's good if you want to exploit mobility or if you are facing things a good deal weaker than you, because 1 maneuver can kill and you can move to the next enemy. Maneuvers also let you do a lot of groovy things besides just stabbing someone. But if you want to stab someone really hard and repeatedly then TWF (and more Rogue levels) is the way to go. This is better if you can get a full attack after a move or a charge, there's a variant Barbarian in Complete Champion that gives pounce for instance. I think there's also a 5th level Tiger Claw maneuver that lets you do the same thing, a Swordsage has access to that discipline.

So you can mix Swordsage and Rogue to get what you want but you probably shouldn't go for a 50/50 split because that would leave you mediocre in both fields. One other thing, once you have a free Rogue talent you can take one that gives you a combat feat, I recommend improved initiative. Winning init then pouncing your enemy with sneak attack should be a fairly viable tactic.

winter_soldier

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 07:06:55 PM »
Glutton - nice idea :) I'll be focusing more on flanking (have a druid and necro to give me flankers if needs be), and if I really need it I will have a maneuver to go invis.

winter_soldier - uhhh.... yeah? It's 3.5 Swash (i wasn't aware there was any other)... and if you look in my feat list you'll see daring outlaw.

juton - I like your thinking. The HP would be nice, but the key thing I wanted was to maintain high bab while progressing SA (and I like the abilities of the swashbuckler better than things like nightsong enforcer). I'd still rather keep bleeding attack at level 2 for flavor (though you are totally right about finesse being best then), so dropping swash would delay weapon finesse until level 4. Don't really need the weapon focus talent as swordsage has that covered.

Do you think it would be best to go the TWF chain if I go more SS, or move to a single weapon and take advantage of more of the maneuvers? There's a few nice ones there to significantly boost damage (more D6s lol), but they're standard attacks.

Thanks for the suggestions



There's a PF Swashbuckler in the Tome of Secrets. What is your whole rationale to multi into Swashbucker, for Insightful Strike?

Zax

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 08:26:44 PM »
Juton - thanks. I'm aware of the pounce options but am as of yet undecided if I wish to go that route. If i'm throwing an extra couple of SS levels I'll definitely grab the tiger claw maneuver. I certainly won't be going 50/50 - most likely i'll maintain the 5/8 dips, but I'll consider the effect of adding more SS. I suppose I have to make the choice of TWF fairly soon - if I go TWF I will want pounce, but if I don't I will probably pick up a few mobility options and focus a little more on the SS strikes. I've only ever dipped lightly into initiator classes for tricks, never gone heavily into it.

winder_soldier - Ok, I wasn't aware. Is it any good? When I get the books I'll need to check it out. As I mentioned before, the choice of Swashbuckler was a combination of extra HP, full BAB, Finesse, insightful strike, and the ability to still progress SA. The tricks the class gets are cooler than that in other potential classes like assassin and nightsong.

So there's obviously many new PF options I haven't seen. Are there any that are good? Is the PF Swashbuckler able to replace the 3.5 one in my above build? Thanks

winter_soldier

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 11:35:16 PM »
I'm going to be playing the TOS Swashbuckler in a campaign in a few weeks...Insightful Strike is replaced by Thrust, which is SA damage with Weapon Finesse weapons when you're flanking. It would give you everything you're looking for in that regard, but no Insightful Strike. Now, you have carte blanche as far as allowed 3.5 sources...anything goes?

Zax

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 12:23:29 AM »
Yeah pretty much anything 3.5 goes (Dragon mags etc by approval). I'd like to steer clear of 'tricky' combos - people in my group grumble about things like Precocious Apprentice to enter Master Specialist early etc.

I saw that thread after my last comment here about you playing swashbuckler. The new class seems cool but is veeery rogue-esque. Do they still get grace (that would qualify them for daring outlaw still)?

I am in the process of looking at what the character would turn out like with just rogue and SS... so far it doesn't look very different at sub 10 levels. Mostly a little loss of BAB and HP, slightly later (by 1 level) finesse, and a couple more feats/free rogue talents.

I went over all the availabilities for SS and am convinced that a small dip is best. It's definiately all-or-dip-or-nothing. The mid levels are unimpressive and mostly just better versions of the lower level maneuvers - without the capstones it's not really worth taking more levels.

I'm stuck about what to do after level 9, but I'm happy to leave that open to see how character progression goes. With the current plan (above), I still have level 9 feat slot open, and with the new one i'm looking at I have 7 and 9 open, so I can decide later if I want to take a PRC

Cheers

winter_soldier

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Re: Help with PF Melee Rogue
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 01:12:31 AM »
Yeah, we're going to be a party of glass cannons: Swashbuckler, Rogue, Monk, Cleric, Sorcerer.

No, they don't get Grace anymore, but I think they're a lot stronger: Ranger saves, extra feats, etc. I wanted to make a fighter-type with less ability dependency (not that Fighters have a ton to begin with), and our DM cautioned us against making heavy armor wearing characters, at least towards the beginning, since heavy armor + campaign with lots of nautical stuff = *glub* at lower levels.