Author Topic: Creating a custom class and balance  (Read 1459 times)

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xeno121

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Creating a custom class and balance
« on: December 18, 2009, 05:17:37 AM »
I'm thinking of making a custom class, I'm having trouble pinning down exactly what I want it to do without it being extremely Overpowered, but then I thought about the nature of being overpowered and what you'd have to compare it to.  It brings me to the Tier 1: Wizards, Clerics, and Druids.  They are extremely powerful purely due to mechanical abilities and Wizards cannot be killed by anothing outside other spellcasters as proven many times the good 'ol melee character vs wizard exercises are performed. 

In the face of contingent spells, foresight, gating in solar's, essentially 9th level spells bend over and violate any sense of balance, and even before that it's concerning, ie. polymorph cheese.  So I'm trying to figure out where exactly I should be aiming for a custom character, whenever something is homebrew people are prone to shouting OP at the drop of a hat when compared to what already is available may be high Tier2 but may or may not be OP to such a huge degree, it's like having a charging focused barbarian, fly up a few hundred feet and hit him with some spells and he's useless because he can have the power of a tactical nuclear missile in his pinky but if he can't use that power it might as well not exist.  It's like making the delivery system for a giant missile throwing the thing by hand, it won't go very far, and your more than likely wasting your time or killing yourself by even trying.

But then you counter, the Barbarian can get boots of fly! He uses money to do what a wizard already does except not as good, which to me seems to turn into, if you're not a wizard why even try when he'll walk up and do what you do just better, or with a single spell invalidate your class on the basis that's what the spell is designed to do.

So where's the sweet spot I should aim for homebrew, and am I wrong for wanting wizard level power without playing a wizard, or really, without a wizard being able to do what I do or shut me down with a single spell, piece of equipment or simple design flaw(sneak attack being useless against a LARGE portion of monsters DMs have a hard on to use, social skills in the face of charms, dominates, glibness, and other spells. 

I liked Tome of Battles attempt at bridging the caster/melee gap and removing the "I attack again" crutch of melee classes.  In the face of Save or Die/Suck anything that can't have the effect of possibly removing an enemy from combat is useless.  The fact is a Fighter/Barbarian can hit things.  They can do it well, but they have a few road blocks.

1. Range
2. Delivery Method
3. Retaliation
4. Defense
5. Reliability of Damage

If they can't get in Range to attack due to walls of force other battlefield control, the fact their damage can be negated by spells(blur, displacement, etc.), that if the wizard isn't dead after the first hit you won't get a second chance, AC is useless in the face of Save or Dies and there's always a spell to attack your bad save(paladins are a little better off in this regard but then that's what orb spells are made for), And they can reliably deal those damage/effects easier and safer because the moment you get within range they just have to teleport away and then bombard you like a Kill Sat against a bunny rabbit.

Trying to pump info from a prisoner on someone's location, why bother, you have divination.  City under attack and needs defense, have the wizard make giant walls to fortify positions.  They care more useful than any other class, the ultimate Jack-of-all-trades except they are the God-of-all-trades. 

As long as a class isn't more powerful than a wizard at any given level I don't see how it can be considered broken in a game with wizards in it.  By virtue of their existence the ceiling for broken things is high, very high.  Now if it's in a weak campaign then that's different but it also just makes the wizard even more powerful, not in an optimized campaign these are considerations that need to be brought up.

I mean just look at the enemies, without a bunch of racials/SLAs is there any Fighter20 high level end boss in any adventures that don't rely on their lv17 wizard cohort to do most of the lifting? 

I'm making a class for a high optimization campaign and am trying to make it badass, playable, fair but effective.  If a wizard can duplicate other classes only purpose/features with spells then what would be the limit on overlap of party positions for a custom class.

I just fail to see why most classes have to start out lame, and then move into the territory of the badass, can it not be unique and badass from the start instead of just a new delivery system for damage, something truly unique?

The way I see it, if you put a class next to a wizard and the wizard can do what they can do better while still being able to do a bunch of other crap, the class is a failure.  You either compete with them directly, or find something they can't do and pump it to insane levels of awesome and glory to compete.  If a custom class could fly 500ft/round and make 100 attacks at +100 attack bonus, they'd still lose to a wizard with foresight, contingency, and a contingent teleport/timestop/etc. prepared.

So my main question I suppose, is, do you balance around a wizard, the people you play with that may or may not include a wizard, or the other weak classes that can't compare to a wizard?

tl;dr in the face of wizards how can you conceivably make an overpowered custom class within reason without duplicated 9th level spells or abilities of the monsters those spells can summon/duplicate or while staying at/beneath the level of power/versatility a wizard possesses at the same level?
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Re: Creating a custom class and balance
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 05:38:08 AM »
Most people aim their classes somewhere around rogue-sorcerer range.
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JaronK

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Re: Creating a custom class and balance
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 07:15:09 AM »
Personally, I like to play Tier 3, but DM for Tier 4, so I'd recommend aiming for that area generally.

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xeno121

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Re: Creating a custom class and balance
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2009, 09:28:00 AM »
I'm thinking of doing a spell point system for the class, I was thinking of basing some of the moves off of 2d-fighter special moves that build up to Super Specials, instead of a bar, I'd instead place in a WoW Rogue-like combo generation system to simulate with a dash of ToB Maneuvers.  The spells would be more like psionics with the scaling effect per point system, throw in some Final Fantasy single attack summons(Yojimbo/Gilgamesh D% for which weapon will be awesome).  A little Jackie Chan drunken master thrown in the mix, Breath of Fire Dragon Transformations, and some Naruto Sage Mode/Dojutsu shenanigans, with some Dissidia EX Mode thrown in for kicks, and Hayates sword moves from Star Gladiator.  A little Final Fantasy Tactics for diversity :3 

I'm either making one diverse class, or a bunch of smaller ones.

Now, I know what you're thinking, this is gonna be OP like a mofo, you're probably right, but I can try to make this workable somehow I'm sure.

For weapons, the Gunblade from Final Fantasy VIII is a definite go, which I figure stats out as a Bastard Sword or a greatsword 2handed with an accuracy boost.  The Trigger pulls would take up Spell points or their own Mana reserve type thing, or maybe make them cartridges, rapid reload would shorten the time taken to switch them out.  I'm leaning more towards crafting your own Gunblade/cartridges, possibly making the cartridges refill after X amount of rounds if they're expensive enough not sure how I want to do that, it seems close to the weapon capsule system in one of the books CAdv I believe.   Piercing attacks would give off the Dissidia Recoil Combo attacks and Slashing the FFVIII Vibro-blade additional damage slashes.

Wall Rush attacks would add bonus dice if you bullrush them into a wall obviously.  Chase attacks would be bullrushes where you follow them and then an opposed attack roll is conducted to determine if another swing is allowed or if the enemy strikes you and stops the chase attack.  The attacks would be limited to movement speed and/or BAB, perhaps the last attack can be chained into a wall rush as well.  There'd have to be some inherent bonuses to bullrush to make up for size difference and additional push distance per 5 points or a class feature that alters the bullrush formula or makes its own separate combat action.

EX Mode I think would work best off of attacks giving EX Force and then reaching a certain amount being able to use EX Mode.  It would require quite a few encounters to get there, and wouldn't be too powerful, It'd probably just give small rage-like bonuses(probably similar to whirling frenzy) or haste-like bonuses(non-stacking) and opening up Renzokuken after hitting with a Special, perhaps requiring the enemy to be at a certain amount of damage similar to the Finishing Blow Maneuver from ToB.

Magic: General Fire, Bolt, Ice, etc.  I'm thinking limited spellcasting focusing on Orb-like attack spells, maybe a cure X wounds type thing.  Elemental attacks lose potency due to protection from element spells though I'm not sure whether that's fine or not. 

GF/Summons: This is where it gets interesting, jack some FFT summons, Moogle for AoE heals, Chocobo to spawn non-combat mounts for X/hours lvl.  Gilgamesh hell yes, Bahamut, not sure how to not make him OP and due it justice, perhaps a Single Non-elemental AoE blast for a healthy chunk of your spell pool.  It seems more Nova-ish though, maybe trade damage now for damage you could've spent through the day, ie if Bahamut is 100 SP, and Fire is 10SP those 10 Fires should do more damage than Bahamut's total damage maybe.  They give stat boosts/abilities depending on their level.

GF Junction: To summon you'd have to equip them, similar to the Binder and his Pact Magic.  A GF can be damaged while waiting to summon it if you take damage during the summoning, If their HP hits 0 you must wait a week to summon them again.  I'm not sure if I want to mess with compatibility to reduce summoning times or just make it a feature.  While summoning damage would be split between you and the GF 50/50.  Not sure how much damage a GF should be able to take.

Naruto Sage Mode: close enough to EX Mode that you could just have it as an advanced EX Mode.

Dojutsu: Oh the sharingan's brokenness, it'd turn you into some fucked up Blue Mage which is pretty cool on it's own.  Something like a Spellcraft check to learn the spell used.

FFVIII Draw System: That would be interesting, similar to that Blue Mage thing, against spellcaster's it's like a spellthief except you add a spell to your list, against elementals you'd get that elemental spell, something like that.

Draw/GF vs Materia/Summons: Now I'm not sure if I want to make Materia slots on equipment via craft checks and have your spells limited by the Materia equipped or use a Draw system for spells.  Materia is simpler, the Draw/GF is more unique.  Materia requires either gaining materia at intervals arbitrarily or having them added to the loot pool, GFs require fighting diverse foes to be effective or like a wizards researching spells, researching locations that'll let you draw magic.

Dragon Transformations:  Dragon Wildshape is an epic feat, errgh, not sure how to get that in there, perhaps stat out a CR friendly dragon form that's not as powerful as a true dragon until higher levels and then require the Dragon Wildshape feat to continue progression while allowing Dragon Transformation to qualify or something, seems a little questionable unless a custom medium/large dragon type, think BoFIV's astral dragon form, or starting out with BoFIII's Whelp/Warrior Dragon form ending with Kaiser Dragon Form instead of turning into Large/Huge dragons, using Dragon/Human Hybrid forms.

Drunken Master: More of a defensive fighting form giving dodge bonuses to AC, reactionary movement, something like setting sun counter charge maneuvers, successful attacks switches you with the enemies position and allows a free drink or something.  I just done watching the movie, so sue me :P.  Maybe attacking Saves with physical attacks instead of AC.  Fire Breath is a must.

Hayato form Star Gladiator: Combos, Sword range extensions, combos, yeah, awesome.

Making this a single class would be awesome but I'm probably gonna have to divide it between Gunblader and Dragon Warrior for lack of a better name.

The real question is, should I make these 20 level base classes or a PrC
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 09:30:55 AM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: Creating a custom class and balance
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 12:10:29 PM »
If you work with a base class(I'd suggest doing it incrementally, see if the idea works with the first 10 levels first, before extending to full), you can implement whole new mechanics better, while a PrC using a new system would need to take some care with how fast/slow/early stuff is obtained.
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xeno121

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Re: Creating a custom class and balance
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2009, 04:21:16 PM »
Found it.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 08:27:00 PM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

xeno121

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Re: Creating a custom class and balance
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2009, 08:13:21 AM »
I was thinking of making a campaign world where There's the material plane that you are on during the day, and then when you sleep you go to the Plane of Dreams.  If you ended every session with the party resting, it would allow individual players to play more often for a few hours when you have time in the event some of them want to play more often than once a week but they all have different times they can play except for on the weekends or whichever day you game.  Just thought it might be an interesting way to accomodat players itch for gaming and it could be used as a device to provide backstory on your gameworld if you make the PC go through the dream of someone else who came before them, like an ancient knight, or a mercenary who was pivotal at a large battle.

The interesting thing is, if you keep whatever the PC's do as the consistent account of what happened in the history of the world it leads to the question if they are dreaming of being the people, or if they are the people in the previous lives, or if they are erasing and recreating history to suit their needs for the dream.  ie. You use a greatsword, he used a lance, now reality has been changed to him using a greatsword his entire life instead of a lance his entire life.   Which begs the question of what if they "die" in their dream, then wake up and the world around them is different.  They're next dream could be about "fixing" what went wrong or protecting themselves by taking over another person and trying again.  In that way it's more of a "I died but had another man" arcade scenario more for fun/interesting than threatening since without the looming threat of death the player is more likely to act like "A big damn hero" and do some amazing yet dangerous things.
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost