Author Topic: Trying to recreate my gish...  (Read 3225 times)

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GawainBS

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Trying to recreate my gish...
« on: June 11, 2008, 05:34:17 PM »
Well, I've read through the PHB, and I'm trying to recreate my old Gish. He was a Fighter(Dragon 310 Kensai)5/Wiz1/Bladesinger10/Abjurant Champion4. Okok, stop laughing now at the choice of Bladesinger, he was fun to play. :p
Anyway, what would be the best way to recreate a Gish in general in 4E, in a fairly optimized way? Best I can think of is a Fighter, Ranger, Paladin or Warlord with the Wizard Paragon path of The Spiral Tower. I'd prefer not to play Warlord, because my friend has already "reserved" that role/class.
I guess my stats should focus on STR & INT, maybe some WIS or CHA.
As for race, I think the best would be Human, but maybe Eladrin is good as well, with the Eladrin Soldier feat?

So, can you help me out? I did do a search on the forum, but their virtually nothing about gishes, apart from the Wizard/Warlord thread.

Thanks in advance!

Squash Monster

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 02:56:49 AM »
Two options I like:

Any defender, multiclassed wizard.  Take power swaps like Shield and Wall of Whatever.  These don't use your intelligence modifier so you don't need to worry about having a fantastic intelligence score.  And they contribute to your defender abilities nicely.  Just take a normal fighter paragon path.

Fighter, multiclassed wizard.  You'll need a pretty good intelligence score.  Get area of effect powers, especially debuffs like Sleep, and enjoy the fact that you mark your target with all attacks, even aoe blasts.  Wizard of the Spiral Tower might be useful here, as it lets you get one enhancement bonus to all your attack rolls.  However, you could just be a staff wizard in the first place.

tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2008, 03:12:41 AM »
For the second option, Eladrin into WotST works as you've suggested.  Having a high to-hit is very nice for The One Sword.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 04:28:52 AM »
Warlord/Wizard is probably better than Fighter/Wizard because of the int synergy, but ymmv.
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GawainBS

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 05:41:14 AM »
Problem is that a) I'm not so much in to the Warlord and b) my friend has already called dibs on it.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
If there was only a race that gave +STR & INT... :)

heffroncm

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 10:20:46 AM »
Githyanki aren't a bad idea for a non-Spire wizard.  2 con, 2 int, +2 init, +1 Will, and tactical movement encounter power.  Still, Eladrin Fighter (Wizard) / Wizard of the Spiral Tower is just sexy.

GawainBS

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 10:39:04 AM »
TBH, I haven't looked at the non-PHB races yet. Going to do that rightaway.
As for Eladrin, do the Racial Power and the Eladrin Soldier feat outweigh the Human's extra power, feat and defenses?

heffroncm

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2008, 10:57:56 AM »
TBH, I haven't looked at the non-PHB races yet. Going to do that rightaway.
As for Eladrin, do the Racial Power and the Eladrin Soldier feat outweigh the Human's extra power, feat and defenses?

IMO, depends.  For a Wizard of the Spiral Tower, with enough melee powers to make use of the Eladrin Soldier, I think it does.  You're only losing 1 Fort and 1 Reflex to a human, and there are more feat slots than you can reasonably fill with useful feats at this time.  Feywild Protection is also a pretty awesome Paragon feat.  You'll not get a ton of mileage out of the third At Will power unless you paragon multiclass.  Most wizards get along just fine with Magic Missile and one of the other three, depending on stats and focus.  Fighters are in even better shape.

GawainBS

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2008, 11:22:25 AM »
Paragon mutliclassing was more or less the plan. Start as a Fighter, than pick up Spiral Tower.

heffroncm

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2008, 11:28:43 AM »
Paragon mutliclassing was more or less the plan. Start as a Fighter, than pick up Spiral Tower.

That's not what I meant by paragon multiclassing.  I meant giving up a Paragon Path, not taking one at all, to get extra abilities from your second class.  This lets you trade out one of your At Will powers for an At Will power from your second class, among other things, which is where the Human 3rd At Will sees the most benefit IMO.

phelanarcetus

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2008, 01:08:26 PM »
I was looking at wizard of the spiral tower last night and I think there's something I've been missing.  Which other people may have been missing as well.  Specifically, having looked again, I can't tell if a fighter->wizard gets to use a longsword as an implement, or whether the implement mastery class feature should be required.

Basically, if I am a fighter->wizard, I don't have the Arcane Implement Mastery feature of a wizard, which allows a wizard to specialize in a particular implement.  Corellon's Implement allows me to choose an arcane implement I specialize in, and allows me to use a longsword as though it were that type of implement.  They're not explicitly connected, so I can't say for certain that this is a requisite, or if I could use a longsword as a generic implement.  If it is a requisite, the paragon path functions for a wizard->fighter, but not the other way around.  Given that both powers are weapon-based, it seems tailored to the wizard who takes up the sword, rather than the swordsman who takes up arcane magic.  As a fighter type going for wizardry, I would probably want to pick up more wizard powers by paragon multiclassing rather than pick up two more weapon attacks.  Which makes humans an ideal race for it.

MittenNinja

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2008, 01:54:12 PM »
The implement mastery class feature doesn't let you use implements, it gives you little bonuses (like extended duration of effects for orbs). So you can still use a wand/orb/staff/rod as an implement without it.

heffroncm

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2008, 02:09:00 PM »
The implement mastery class feature doesn't let you use implements, it gives you little bonuses (like extended duration of effects for orbs). So you can still use a wand/orb/staff/rod as an implement without it.

Thing is, Wizard of the Spiral Tower recquires specialization in an implement to use Corellon's Implement.  From Arcane Implement Mastery:
Quote from: 4e PHB 157
You specialize in the use of one kind of implement to gain additional abilities when you wield it. Choose one of the following forms of implement mastery.
[/quote

By RAW, you have to have Wizard as your base class to get any use out of Corellon's Implement.

phelanarcetus

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2008, 02:51:52 PM »
Right.  And really, the main reason I see as a fighter-based gish to take Wizard of the Spiral Tower is to cut down the number of magic items I need.  Assuming I've managed to keep my Strength and Intelligence roughly in sync with each other, a pair of weapon attacks keyed off of Int aren't anything special, though the first one does give me a chance to refresh itself.  If my Int is behind my Str, then the only saving grace is that they're Will-targeting.  But I didn't gain more ranged power of any sort.  But having a single weapon instead of trying to maintain a weapon and an implement?  That's a definite benefit.

Whereas if I was a wizard picking up fighter or warlord stuff, I get two solid melee powers usable off of my prime stat.

GawainBS

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Re: Trying to recreate my gish...
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2008, 02:53:49 PM »
Too bad. I think I'm going to ask my DM to wave the "specialize" requirement. As it is, it really makes it lame...