Author Topic: Let's try this again...  (Read 2300 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Let's try this again...
« on: December 19, 2009, 01:10:34 PM »
Still working on this...


Hit Die: d12

BAB: Good
Saves: All Good

Class SkillsSkill Points at 1st Level:Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Quote
Lv        Class Features
1Chosen weapon, Masterwork body
2Domain I
3Fast movement +5ft, Weapon Specialisation
4Domain II
5Chosen weapon (aligned strike), Immunities (disease)
6Fast movement +10ft, Domain III
7Perfection I
8Domain IV
9Fast movement +15ft, Spell resistance
10Chosen weapon (materials), Domain V
11Immunities (poison)
12Fast movement +20ft, Domain VI
13Perfection II
14Domain VII
15Chosen weapon (force), Fast movement +25ft
16Domain VIII
17Immunities (mind-affecting)
18Fast movement +30ft, Domain IX
19Perfection III
20Apotheosis, Chosen weapon (stunning)

Chosen weapon: A ? chooses one weapon with which he is proficient. He gains the Weapon Focus feat for that type of weapon, and it gains a +1 enhancement bonus (or equivalent) per two class levels (round down). He may further enchant the weapon as if he possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armour feat, ignoring prerequisites other than caster level (for which he uses his class level). He may even choose unarmed strike as his chosen weapon, in which case he gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. At 3rd level, he also gains the Weapon Specialisation feat for that weapon. At 5th level, his chosen weapon gain alignment decriptors matching his alignment. At 10th level he may treat it as any metal for the purposes of ignoring damage reduction. At 15th level it gains the Force descriptor. At 20th level any creature struck by his chosen weapon must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + half his character level + his Wis modifier) or be stunned for 1 round.

Masterwork body: A ?'s body is treated as a suit of masterwork armour which grants a base armour bonus to AC equal to his Wis modifier. This "armour" has no maximum Dex bonus, armour check penalty or arcane spell failure, does not reduce his speed or count as armour for abilities which require the character to be unarmoured, and cannot be removed. The armour may be enchanted in the same manner as his chosen weapon (though it does not grow in power automatically as he levels). If the ? is a warforged the bonus granted by his composite plating is halved and his Wis modifier is added to it - this replaces the standard version of the ability.

Domain: At 2nd level, a ? gains access to one cleric domain. He gains the granted power of the domain and may cast each of its spells 1/day as spell-like abilities, as long as his class level is at least double the spell level. He must still provide any material or XP components normally required by the spell.

Fast movement: A ?'s base speed for all movement modes increases by +5ft at every third level.

Immunities: A ? becomes immune to disease at 5th level. At 11th level he becomes immune to poison, and at 17th level he becomes immune to mind-affecting effects.

Perfection: At 7th level, and every 6th level thereafter, all a ?'s ability scores increase by 1.

Spell resistance: At 9th level, a ? gains spell resistance equal to his class level + 11. He may raise or lower this spell resistance as a free action.

Apotheosis: At 20th level, a ? becomes a minor deity. He gains Divine Rank 0, which grants the following benefits (note that he has already gained some of the effects of divinity through his class levels, and thus they are not included).
  • No longer age, and do not need to eat, drink or sleep.
  • Type treated as Outsider in addition to normal type.
  • Hit points from all HD are maximised (if the character's HD were already maximised for some reason, his base hp are doubled).
  • Deflection bonus to AC equal to Charisma modifier
  • DR 10/epic
  • Immunity to transmutation effects, except ones he uses on himself.
  • Immunity to energy drain, ability drain, and ability damage.
  • Spell resistance increases to class level + 15
  • Resistance to fire 5
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 05:37:34 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Kerrick

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • Project Phoenix wiki
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 01:36:10 PM »
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're making something that's either delibately broken (a not-for-serious-play class) for some reason, or you've got a goal in mind. I'll go further and hazard a guess that it's the latter, though I can't imagine what kind of role this class would fill or what it is - a divine monk?
Project Phoenix. 4E the way it should have been done.

Havok4

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2144
  • It can only be attributable to human error.
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 01:56:30 PM »
Surprisingly enough this class looks like it could have a moderate chance of defeating a full spellcaster if the caster is not given time to prepare, which is surprising.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2009, 12:32:39 AM »
Not really sure what you're going for here...

Chosen weapon: A ? chooses one weapon with which he is proficient. He gains the Weapon Focus feat for that type of weapon, and it gains a +1 enhancement bonus (or equivalent) per two class levels (round down). He may further enchant the weapon as if he possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armour feat, ignoring prerequisites other than caster level (for which he uses his character level). He may even choose unarmed strike as his chosen weapon, in which case he gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. At 3rd level, he also gains the Weapon Specialisation feat for that weapon. At 5th level, his chosen weapon gain alignment decriptors matching his alignment. At 10th level he may treat it as any metal for the purposes of ignoring damage reduction. At 15th level it gains the Force descriptor. At 20th level any creature struck by his chosen weapon must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + half his character level + his Wis modifier) or be stunned for 1 round.

So, basically a Kensai/OA Samurai/Ancestral Relic sort of ability which eventually gives a few fun feats.  Nothing wrong with this (though the Force descriptor thing is a little odd).  Also, the level 20 ability needs to be a little more clear about what happens when you hit multiple times in a round (does he have to save every time, or once per round?).  However, it's too dipable, because you make it based on character level instead of class level.

Quote
Masterwork body: A ?'s body is treated as a suit of masterwork armour which grants a base armour bonus to AC equal to his Wis modifier. This "armour" has no maximum Dex bonus, armour check penalty or arcane spell failure, does not reduce his speed or count as armour for abilities which require the character to be unarmoured, and cannot be removed. The armour may be enchanted in the same manner as his chosen weapon.

Interesting enough.  What happens if he's a Warforged?  And again, it's ripe for dipping due to the Character level thing.

Quote
Domain: At 2nd level, a ? gains access to one cleric domain. He gains the granted power of the domain and may cast each of its spells 1/day as spell-like abilities, as long as his class level is at least double the spell level.

Miracle or Wish as a spell like?  Uh oh.

Quote
Fast movement: A ?'s base speed for all movement modes increases by +5ft at every third level.

Immunities: A ? becomes immune to disease at 5th level. At 11th level he becomes immune to poison, and at 17th level he becomes immune to mind-affecting effects.

Perfection: At 7th level, and every 6th level thereafter, all a ?'s ability scores increase by 1.

Spell resistance: At 9th level, a ? gains spell resistance equal to his class level + 9. He may raise or lower this spell resistance as a free action.

Nothing wrong with these, though the spell resistance is low enough that it may not matter much. 

Quote
Apotheosis: At 20th level, a ? becomes a minor deity. He gains Divine Rank 0, which grants the following benefits.
  • No longer age, and do not need to eat, drink or sleep.
  • Type treated as Outsider in addition to normal type.
  • Hit points from all HD are maximised (if the character's HD were already maximised for some reason, his base hp are doubled).
  • Deflection bonus to AC equal to Charisma modifier
  • DR 10/epic
  • Immunity to transmutation effects, except ones he uses on himself.
  • Immunity to energy drain, ability drain, and ability damage.
  • Spell resistance increases to class level + 13
  • Resistance to fire 5

Potent, but at level 20 there's nothing wrong with this.

In the end, I don't see anything nasty about this (except the potential for some broken spell like abilities).  But what are you aiming for?  Some sort of warforged style "I make myself perfect" class?  I really don't see anything strong besides the spell likes either.  It's just resistant, kinda fast, and if it has down time it can upgrade itself a bit.  Honestly, it feels like a Fighter that might start firing off spell like wishes at high level.  That and the dipability of the first level abilities are my only concerns.

JaronK

Havok4

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2144
  • It can only be attributable to human error.
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2009, 12:44:38 AM »
Most of those issues can be fixed by making the abilities class level based and if you do that it is about as dip friendly as a monk. The Spell resistance actually seems kind of weak as it is less than is normal for hit dice based spell resistance. The domain bit could be fixed by requiring xp and expensive material components to be paid prior to use. It might be good to give the class more abilities which key off wisdom like minor healing abilities or similar.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2009, 01:10:42 AM »
Most of those issues can be fixed by making the abilities class level based and if you do that it is about as dip friendly as a monk. The Spell resistance actually seems kind of weak as it is less than is normal for hit dice based spell resistance. The domain bit could be fixed by requiring xp and expensive material components to be paid prior to use. It might be good to give the class more abilities which key off wisdom like minor healing abilities or similar.

Certainly, it's quite fixable.  Make the armor and weapon abilities class level based (and make sure you've got the Warforged interaction handled), explicitly talk about what happens if you then try to put armor on (it shouldn't stack), deal with the spell like issue so it doesn't get exp free spells (it'll still be very strong if it can eventually use Shapechange or PAO, but obviously no stronger than anyone else who can cast them), and maybe upgrade the spell resistance a bit.

But then it definitely needs more... something.  I agree more wisdom based abilities might be nice.  It seems to be a class based around the concept of becoming perfection, so giving it related abilities might be nice (eventually perhaps it could gain wisdom to hit and damage due to serene insight, maybe?).  I'm also not seeing much in the way of out of combat utility.  The domain abilities are obviously handy, but limited.  At the very least, a solid skill list would be nice.  Maybe something like Brains over Brawn, but for Wisdom (so add Wisdom to all int and charisma based skills or something?).  I dunno. 

As currently written, it's got one broken ability (the spell like domain abuse potential), the level one dippability issue, and is otherwise kinda... meh.  It needs more.

JaronK

Havok4

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2144
  • It can only be attributable to human error.
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2009, 01:25:15 AM »
Wisdom to ability checks and skills would be a good addition. Possibly also a wisdom bonus to fort and reflex saves or more immunities would fit the class well. Maybe add a few energy resistances that can be chosen. In terms of power level this thing looks like it would end up somewhere in tier two, mostly due to the domain abilities.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2009, 09:36:01 AM »
Certainly, it's quite fixable.  Make the armor and weapon abilities class level based (and make sure you've got the Warforged interaction handled), explicitly talk about what happens if you then try to put armor on (it shouldn't stack), deal with the spell like issue so it doesn't get exp free spells (it'll still be very strong if it can eventually use Shapechange or PAO, but obviously no stronger than anyone else who can cast them), and maybe upgrade the spell resistance a bit.
They're already class level based (and the armour doesn't actually improve on its own), wearing two suits of armour doesn't stack anyway, and I just put the "normal components required" clause into the domain ability.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2009, 05:30:03 PM »
They're already class level based (and the armour doesn't actually improve on its own), wearing two suits of armour doesn't stack anyway, and I just put the "normal components required" clause into the domain ability.

They're not class level based, it says this:  "He may further enchant the weapon as if he possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armour feat, ignoring prerequisites other than caster level (for which he uses his character level)."

Basically, this means at level one you get two versions of the Ancestral Relic feat, one for your body and one for your weapon.  So, that's two feats at first level as a dip, plus your weapon is instantly a +1 weapon at level 1.  That's what I was referring to.  Though you should also put in something to indicate if you gain the weapon automatically when you gain your first level in the class anyway.  Also, the interactions of that ability are weird... if I'm level 4 and want to augment my weapon, I don't think I can because it's a +2 weapon already and Craft Magic Arms and Armor won't let me further augment it due to the high pre existing bonus.  Plus the price to add new enchantments goes up every other level due to the bonus increasing.  You should figure out how you want that to work and spell it out.

I think as written now it's not that strong.  You've got a very nice magic weapon (maybe, see above), okay armor (it's enchantable which is nice but the AC bonus isn't exactly huge... by the way, would it stack with Dastanas or that chest piece thing from OA?), one likely potent spell per level, and a lot of immunities.  The run speed thing is cute but hardly important in the scheme of things.  It's sort of hard to gauge since the power level will vary so dramatically depending on the domain chosen (I'd pick a domain that grants PAO or Shapechange, personally).  Even with a strong domain it'll bounce around in power a lot, as many domains have weak spells at some levels and very powerful spells at other levels.  It needs... something more.

JaronK

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 06:17:44 AM »
I agree with JaronK ... as it is now, it actually isn't strong enough offensively.

Defensively, it is pretty strong, but it doesn't have much offensive punch ... how would he attack in the 3rd battle of the day?  10th level ? vs. a fighter?  vs. a spellcaster?

The enhancement to weapon/body and the domain are a nice touch.  

Best,
David

P.S.  I do agree that spell-like is very dangerous.
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

axenome1

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 42
    • Email
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 03:27:24 PM »
As far as I'm reading it, the SLA he gets from that domain isn't really that bad since he only gets a total of 9 SLA 1/day. His combat ability isn't really significantly higher than a cleric of his level (Yes, I am familiar with CoDzilla complaints, but f**k it, if cleric can be played balance everyone else upward, I say- more fun that way unless the player specifically enjoys playing gimps) and he's much more limited in what he can select. If the idea of the character gaining Miracle is SO heinous then either ban the Luck domain or else rigidly enforce the 5k exp hit it takes to cast it. The latter of which I would do anyways. Seriously I think Mordenkainen's disjunction is more game breaking, no exp cost or mat cost and the opportunity to turn any artifact in the game into a paperweight. Of course, to be fair, it DOES have its share of side effects  :D
"I would love to just run out the end of that building dressed as a sperm..."
-Internet comment regarding the Yas Hotel, constructed in Dubai

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2009, 05:16:59 PM »
As far as I'm reading it, the SLA he gets from that domain isn't really that bad since he only gets a total of 9 SLA 1/day. His combat ability isn't really significantly higher than a cleric of his level (Yes, I am familiar with CoDzilla complaints, but f**k it, if cleric can be played balance everyone else upward, I say- more fun that way unless the player specifically enjoys playing gimps) and he's much more limited in what he can select. If the idea of the character gaining Miracle is SO heinous then either ban the Luck domain or else rigidly enforce the 5k exp hit it takes to cast it. The latter of which I would do anyways. Seriously I think Mordenkainen's disjunction is more game breaking, no exp cost or mat cost and the opportunity to turn any artifact in the game into a paperweight. Of course, to be fair, it DOES have its share of side effects  :D

Actually, I think we're agreeing ;)

Also, if the domain does cost Exp, I agree with you.  However, I think it is still underpowered. (Offensively).

I was thinking of doing something very similar, but using the sorcerer as a base.  I may get around to it.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2010, 03:10:04 AM »
The Spell Likes could still end up with him Shapechanging into a Solar for Cleric casting or something (this could be nerfed, but by RAW that's how it would work).  Then you've got this annoying situation where the guy is pretty weak for 16 levels and then suddenly he kicks ass and takes names for a short period per day.  Weird.  Needs ironing out.

JaronK

axenome1

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 42
    • Email
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2010, 06:51:17 PM »
The Spell Likes could still end up with him Shapechanging into a Solar for Cleric casting or something (this could be nerfed, but by RAW that's how it would work).  Then you've got this annoying situation where the guy is pretty weak for 16 levels and then suddenly he kicks ass and takes names for a short period per day.  Weird.  Needs ironing out.
Even then it's really not that bad. High end abilities are there to be USED. They're SUPPOSED to be powerful. Opponents at cr 16+ are able to do all kinds of nasty things, so as a DM it's your responsibility to cheese the PC's as badly as they cheese your game world. After all, logic dictates that they are not automatically the smartest individuals to have ever lived; learn to adjust your tactics as appropriate. If you're really having trouble with your challenges being cakewalked, use tougher challenges. Let the PC's revel in their might and give them fights based on their ability, not an arbitrary CR. You'll be able to trot out the big guns, have lots of explosions, and everyone has more fun than just saying "Too powerful. Can't use Shapechange" or "No you can't scry my bbeg because I didn't take scry into account when I made the adventure." Encouraging flexibility and ingenuity puts back something that was lost when feats were introduced to keep experienced players from making newbies feel inadequate. As far as I'm concerned, any player who finds a means by which to suffocate a dragon in his own cave using wall of force and so forth is to be commended- not that such a task will be easy because, honestly, all the dragons stupid enough to have no fall back plan for something like that should have died off a long time before the big scaly bastard got to be high enough CR that he's a fight for the PCs.

Honestly, you can ruin their day just by having any villain get wind of their interest in the plot and hire a couple of spellcasters to keep them under 24 hour magical surveilance- then you're perfectly justified in tailoring the enemy's tactics to the abilities and weaknesses of the party. Make use of psionic foes, advance some monsters a few hit dice. Have a couple spell effects ready and running. Launch a teleportation ambush with a small squad of hired devils (Paid for with coerced forfeitures of souls or something from the innocents the bbeg is oppressing). Anti-magic field is a fun way to ensure that the game breaking spells don't get to break everything. Or hell, throw a Beholder at them every so often. Beholders are potentially tpk's at virtually any level if played right, and that's without any of the sugar puffs from the Lords of Madness.

Jesus christ, DM's of the world. You have fucking battleship ordinance at your command in the MM alone and everyone insists on forcing their players to play with the 9mm Berettas that you're used to. Step outside the comfort zone for a change...
"I would love to just run out the end of that building dressed as a sperm..."
-Internet comment regarding the Yas Hotel, constructed in Dubai

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Let's try this again...
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2010, 08:48:22 PM »
My issue is not that the spell likes he gets would be too powerful (obviously, a Cleric could do better) but that the way this is built he'd be much weaker for tons of levels, then suddenly be much stronger at a level when he gets a solid spell like (such as Shapechange).  That's poor balancing.  A well made class should have a relatively even power curve.  A class like the Healer is an example of a poorly made class... weak for many levels, then suddenly they get Gate.

JaronK