Author Topic: Character Planning  (Read 56926 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #400 on: January 11, 2010, 10:08:02 PM »
I suggest this for diplomacy.
I really don't like those rules.

A level 20 wizard can't convince his level 20 cleric wife to pass the salt.
They're less broken than the standard ones, and they're still (ab)usable. A guy in my game just convinced the enemy of a leading "army" to surrender using Intimidate, and I used those modifiers. He isn't super optimized around it, either. He just rolled well. The diplomacy rules as written are basically unusable. I like how one of the guys at the Gaming Den put it (paraphrasing): With a DC 35ish diplomacy check, you win D&D. Or your DM ignores them (more likely).

Also, the wizard would get a -10 to the DC. So he might pull it off, if he bribed her (I'll wash the dishes). :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #401 on: January 11, 2010, 10:18:30 PM »
See that's the difference between role-playing and roll-playing.  Some things/people just aren't "open" to a diplomatic solution.  NO matter how smooth talking you are they are going to tell you to gtfo...

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #402 on: January 11, 2010, 10:19:02 PM »
I suggest this for diplomacy.
I really don't like those rules.

A level 20 wizard can't convince his level 20 cleric wife to pass the salt.
They're less broken than the standard ones, and they're still (ab)usable. A guy in my game just convinced the enemy of a leading "army" to surrender using Intimidate, and I used those modifiers. He isn't super optimized around it, either. He just rolled well. The diplomacy rules as written are basically unusable. I like how one of the guys at the Gaming Den put it (paraphrasing): With a DC 35ish diplomacy check, you win D&D. Or your DM ignores them (more likely).

Also, the wizard would get a -10 to the DC. So he might pull it off, if he bribed her (I'll wash the dishes). :P
Well, a level 20 cleric is at least a DC 15+20+7 (wis bonus)=42.  Their relationship is "intimate", so that's a -10 to the DC, and it's an even deal, so +0.  Let's say the wizard put max cross-class ranks into diplomacy (for some reason), but has a 10 charisma, so that's a +11 on the check.  In other words, he has to make a DC 32 check with a +11 bonus.  

If he didn't put any ranks into diplomacy, he couldn't convince his wife to accept a present.  

On the other hand, when DMing I tend to see the benefits of "helpful" as being rather limited (sorry man, you seem like a nice guy, but orders are orders), and the epic rules are dumb anyway, so whatever.

ED@Thistle: Long story short, some shortsighted rulesmonkeys made a few feats and classes devoted to in-combat use of diplomacy.  Why?  Haven't a clue
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Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #403 on: January 11, 2010, 10:22:40 PM »
I'm just saying there are plenty of circumstances (ie, "Could you please pass the salt?") where it makes zero sense to make a roll.  Diplomacy should be roleplayed anyways and dealth with according to the situation.  That is one of the gripes against D20 that kept me away for so long....reducing everything to a mechanical role, rather than using a combination of situation, role playing felicity and common sense to determine the course of events...

Prime32

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #404 on: January 11, 2010, 10:33:06 PM »
I would add some stuff to the rules based on how much effort the task you want someone to do takes. As in, it's harder to convince someone to go on a six-month journey than to tell you where the nearest tavern is, even if the reward is good.
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[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
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Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #405 on: January 11, 2010, 10:37:23 PM »
IMHO the only time Diplomacy should be usable in combat is if some kind of magic (ie Charm) is in effect.  Otherwise it's like a quote I heard in a movie which one I can't recall which is something to the effect of "Once fighting has broken out, the time for diplomatic solutions has passed." (aside from one side surrenduring).

VennDygrem

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #406 on: January 11, 2010, 11:31:17 PM »
That's not the point- diplomacy isn't really going to factor into combat. However, the game you've chosen to play, D&D, is a game based on a set of rules. These rules govern everything, especially what characters are capable of doing in said game. Skills govern how good a character is at doing certain things, such as their diplomatic skills. Of course I'm going to require you guys to interact with NPCs and speak to them to work those social skills. The skill rolls reflect how effective those words are in achieving your goal.

The set of rules is not perfect, and of course that's why we're discussing that now.

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #407 on: January 11, 2010, 11:58:00 PM »
Yep, and why house rules were invented...to apply logic and common sense where the game designers lacked it.  ;)

To take my point a bit further, I am of the school that the dice should never *wholly* dictate the game.  For example, killing a character superfluously because the rolled crappy is messed up, but letting a charachter die because the player was being a moron and doing something that would obviously get them killed isn't.  On the other hand, if the player was super into character, and made a really well presented rousing speech, that appealed to the in game, in character sensibilities of an enemy general or offered something that was too good to refuse, I come from the school of gaming that says that player should get a sizeable bonus to their diplomacy check (or whatever) or for the more advanced mature roleplaying troupes, perhaps the roll would be waived altogether and the DM consideres the player characters words from the perspective of the general and decides how said general would react to said words.

Don't get me wrong...I am a fan of rules and systems, but they should never trump the gold and silver rules of roleplay gaming...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #408 on: January 12, 2010, 12:41:01 AM »
I think most of the people here would disagree with you, at least to a certain extent...

I don't mind house rules, but I'd like to know about them before the game starts if at all possible. If not, then as soon as possible after that. I don't like house rules that are made up on the spot, at the DMs whim. I want to play a game, not have the DM dictate how things happen to me. If I wanted that, I'd read a book.

I also want to know what my character is capable of. If I don't even know the rules we're playing with, that's impossible.

And I like the fact that big events can be determined by the dice. That's a major part of the game. If I didn't like that, I probably wouldn't play any d20 games. Dice pools are better for getting average results most of the time, and heavily weighting things in favor of skilled vs. unskilled attempts at things. d20 rolls are extreme in their randomness. No result is weighted over another. Dealing with that is something you have to consider when building and playing your character.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #409 on: January 12, 2010, 12:47:45 AM »
Right.  And most of my favorite games are either dice pool based (Storyteller system, Shadowrun etc.) or percentile based (Marvel RPG, Warhammer etc.)

bearsarebrown

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #410 on: January 12, 2010, 01:02:53 AM »
I think most of the people here would disagree with you, at least to a certain extent...

I don't mind house rules, but I'd like to know about them before the game starts if at all possible. If not, then as soon as possible after that. I don't like house rules that are made up on the spot, at the DMs whim. I want to play a game, not have the DM dictate how things happen to me. If I wanted that, I'd read a book.

I also want to know what my character is capable of. If I don't even know the rules we're playing with, that's impossible.

And I like the fact that big events can be determined by the dice. That's a major part of the game. If I didn't like that, I probably wouldn't play any d20 games. Dice pools are better for getting average results most of the time, and heavily weighting things in favor of skilled vs. unskilled attempts at things. d20 rolls are extreme in their randomness. No result is weighted over another. Dealing with that is something you have to consider when building and playing your character.

 :clap

Exactly.

tallan

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #411 on: January 12, 2010, 01:24:59 AM »
I could have gone with high Diplomacy had I so chose.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #412 on: January 12, 2010, 01:29:43 AM »
I could have gone with high Diplomacy had I so chose.
I'm growing to dislike that skill more and more, and I even have a diplomancer in one game on here. :P That's not all he does, though.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #413 on: January 12, 2010, 01:34:08 AM »
I understand the underlying concerns here, and while I almost wish I hadn't brought it up, I'd also hate to think about it mid-game and try to change things.

For this game, most skills will remain the same. Occasionally, if something comes up such as a potential knowledge check, I will alert players if they get a particular bonus for familiarity before the roll is attempted. Certain rolls will not be necessary, for those things which are common sense or otherwise common knowledge (such as identifying a creature that is part of one's own race, or is extremely common). Similarly, social opportunities will be met with a bonus or penalty given the circumstances.

Honestly I'm not sure what route is best. I don't want to over-complicate things. I also want you guys to have fun. And you guys want to be able to start soon. I'll try to take a better look at my options, but for now I've got some homework and classes tomorrow to get through. Tomorrow night if I'm not too exhausted, I'll be in a better position to weigh these things against eachother. I will say that I generally like that the linked Diplo rules describe Diplomacy as bargaining. It's not a perfect system but the description is apt.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #414 on: January 12, 2010, 01:41:20 AM »
Your PM box is full, Venn. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #415 on: January 12, 2010, 01:50:44 AM »
Not anymore. :D

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #416 on: January 12, 2010, 04:49:18 PM »
Ugh, sorry for the delay guys, real life went into overdrive...
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VennDygrem

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #417 on: January 12, 2010, 11:39:01 PM »
It's ok. I'm still working out some kinks anyway. Not sure whether or not to introduce more house rules for skills or not. Again, I don't want to overcomplicate things, but I want a fun game where the stuff you guys build into your characters actually matters.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #418 on: January 14, 2010, 04:44:44 AM »
We almost there?

VennDygrem

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Re: Character Planning
« Reply #419 on: January 14, 2010, 07:20:44 AM »
Soon. Again, still debating those few small changes, but mostly just hit that point at the beginning of semester where we get into the actual work, among a couple other issues in my life offline. Please bear with me for just a little bit longer.