The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Psiotheurgist feats or Bloodlines is the only other way.

Um that feat says specifically nor does it grant you the ability to manifest powers of a higher level. Hmm

[bearsarebrown]

  Psiotheurgist! I've never seen that feat before.

Wiz 1
Ardent 2
Cerebremancer 7
Mind Mage 10

Ardent CL = 2 + 7 + 7 + 10 = 26
Wizard CL = 1 + 7 + 7 + 10 = 25

ML/CL = 51! on a school of my choice! That sounds sweet holy cow!

[awaken DM golem]

Dragon #349 is good stuff for psi.

Plz - right and that's how it works for every other psi class, but Ardents get their power levels via their ML.

b2b - I'm seeing an extra 7 in both of those.
Ardent ML = 2 + 7 + 10 = 19
Wizard CL = 1 + 7 + 10 = 18
Psiotheurgist would make one School / Discipline pair 19 + 18 = 37
Of course they could do another pair.
And I've no idea how the calculation works via the Mind Mage's class abilities.

EDIT - I was wrong, see b2b's very next post.

[bearsarebrown]

Ardent ML = 2 + 7 + 10 = 19
Wizard CL = 1 + 7 + 10 = 18
Psiotheurgist would make one School / Discipline pair 19 + 18 = 37

Ardent = 2 (ardent) + 7 (cerebremancer) + 8 (mind mage) + 10 (mind mage capstone) = 27
Wizard = 1 (wizard) + 7 (cerebremancer) + 8 (mind mage) + 10 (mind mage capstone) = 26
26 + 27 = 53 CL/ML.

I think that's the final math. Wowie...

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Plz - right and that's how it works for every other psi class, but Ardents get their power levels via their ML.

Ya I know about the ardent trick. But what about that strange restriction? Wouldn't it also hold back ardents or EX psions?

[awaken DM golem]

 
Late response; I had to get Dragon #349 out of storage.

Ok here goes:
The first paragraph introduces the concept of Total Manifester Level, and kinda defines it, but not much. This would support your idea.
The second paragraph says: " ... nor does it grant you the ability to cast spells ^a ... of a higher level than you can normally ... "
This would support your idea, but this is how every other class works.
At ^a it also says " ... manifest powers ... ".
This could support your position, especially with all other psionic classes.
But then it says: " ... it only increases your ... manifester level when manifesting a power of the chosen discipline."
Here what it does is ditch the distinction of Total Manifester Level, and have ~just manifester level.
So now the ML = ML , even though it's a supposedly different ML.

Now we mix in Ardent, and there is no listing on what is the highest level power you can manifest. None.
The educated guess of the old psi-board, was keyed to the ML of the powers. Seems kinda settled, and it functions well enough.
They easily could have errata'd this minor problem, but no such luck.
So the Ardent might be limited to ML, but it might be limited to the other ML.
And the language is not specific enough to pick either.
I'm sure that if a DM wanted to NOT have this kind of stuff happening in their game, they can legitimately decide that your position should apply to Ardents.
My only real complaint would be they are making up a limit, that isn't there, that is also totally reasonable.

So then I go to Heighten shenanigans for Clerics, and all the various other tricks Arcane gets.
Psionics only gets this one way to do it.

Plz - what do you think ?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Well I see the ambiguity also. So that's why I was asking about it and wasn't really sure. I'd say that in a more lenient campaign, if magic gets them goodies so should psionics. I am a minority in that I think the heighten shenanigans don't work by my reading of RAW - so that's right out. But there are other ways to get miracle at early level x

Personally? I love abusing ML. Love it. I think it makes the casting mechanic feel juuuust different enough to be cool. I would say this: RAW this probably doesn't feel like it works. Yes its ambiguous, and no I can't be sure that I'm right.

But to Hell with RAW. The "normally manifest" line goes out the window with ardents or even psychic reformations. It seems clear to me that if the manifester level bump didn't work like every other manifester bump out there then it should make that clear. Perhaps the author didn't really understand CL and ML that well (because there is no way someone would think gaining some CL level would allow higher spells).

Nice catch though. I thought I knew most of the ML bump tricks. If I do use this one I'll put a note about its ambiguity. No one denies ML53 is cool. The normal bump tricks can get it higher 

The only time having a really, really high ML level was desired was action abuse for temporal acceleration. Having 12 rounds of a timestop is pretty awesome (5 more than a trickery domain DMM cleric)

Me being bored (warning extreme min/maxing below):[spoiler]
f1 1 metamagic
f2 precocious apprentice
s1 sanctuary spell
h1 overchannel
Wizard 1
psion 1 -> Practiced Manifestor
   NPC psych reform for a 2nd level power
3:psiotheurgist
6:Practiced Spellcaster
Mind Mage 5 (gives 3ML, 3CL)

in 1 school at level 7:
ML=1psion+3MM+3PracMan+2*(1wiz+3MM+3pracSpell)
7+2*7=21 without overchannel, or a torc, or earth power, or...





Obviously I can do better. I'll change my 999 build (light item borrowing cheese) for the goal of max ML:
Psion1
BM1
CM8
MM10
w/ major bloodline (reformat out those feats)

We want the Psiotheurge feat 9 times so that we don't have to worry about the schools. Depending on the bloodline you might have to sell your soul and/or serve an elder evil.

CL=2*(16+10+3+3)+1 ioun stone orange prizm + 1Ring of Arcane Might + 1 Lunar Magic + 1 Storm Magic = 68

at a full moon in a storm (strange I know, but these are the ONLY CL buffs that last longer than a few rounds and don't restrict patron or school)

Also all other classes that grant CL boosts do not grant more than 2 per level, like CM does after the MM boost

ML=CL*2+(1+8+8)+3Bloodline+10MM+3overchannel+1torc+3prac man+2power link+1earth power = 176

Power Link shards give an effective +2 for augmentation (which is fine because no powers have a base cost of more than 17)
Earth power gives 1
the torc is also only 3/day but requires no buff time and can be used across the day.
Midnight augmentation is specific to one power (worse than limiting to 1 school or mantle) so its not included.

Note that the CL could count again if full magic transparency is in effect (too cheesy for me but would bring this to 244 and I personally think 59 rounds - that's almost an HOUR people! - is too much for 1 psion  )

Last notes: This doesn't use CL abuse, so no GCF with a bag of rats. Also I didn't use minor few round boosting things for CL, nor did I dig extensively for items.

I told you I found this thread sexy. [/spoiler]

[bearsarebrown]

I've decided to give this another go by just asking  Ur-Priest use. (you only need to cheese entry, the class progresses any spellcasting)

Savage Barb 1/ Wizard 1/ Telepath 5/Ur Priest 1/ Psionic Theurge 2/ Mind Mage 10

This will leave you with 8th level powers(ML 25) and 9th level spells (CL 34).

You can basically persist anything you want and if you take Psiotheurgist for Transmutation you'll end up with CL 59. Which, when combined with Power Shards, will make Vigor grant 780HP and Biofeedback grant DR 54/-. Both of which you share with your familiar and psicrystal.

[KellKheraptis]

Ok, time to get dirty...we can get into Ur-Priest by 6th level, and we can pick up Ardent early.  Spellthief (bardic casting variant) will give that a CL at level 1.  The Jacob's Ladder trick will allow us to qualify for Mind Mage with Ur-Priest, which means the initial goal of dual 9's is completed easily.  Ardent and Ur-Priest are both Wis based, but we'll still need Int for Wizard spell DC's.  Now, the cheesy way (that's probably unkosher but I swear by it) is using 1 level of PrC Pally and then taking SotAO once you have a total of 4 PrC Pally casting levels.  Since it's a theurge and I might want it to see use, we'll err on the side of caution.  So far we have :
Spellthief 1/Ardent 1/xxx 3/Ur-Priest 1/PrC Pally 4/Mind Mage 10

This will give 9th level Ur-Priest spells of either the Cleric or Sor/Wiz list, and with PM, a ML of 13+xxx+3, or 16+x.  If one of those levels is Ardent, we're getting 9th level powers.  Now...I wonder how SC and Bard can be tied into this.  Ardent, while being subpar for casting stat, synergizes well with Ur-casting at least, and given that with the combined awesome that is triple-casting, it's effectively a moot point.  Also, CL will be equal to ML due to magic mantle, so even if we went Ardent 3, we'd be golden.  Somewhere in those first 5 levels we need a good Fort class, and personally, I'd go for Duskblade or Cloistered Cleric.  Duskblade gives martial weapons and full BAB, in addition to adding more CL overall, while Cloistered Cleric grants 2 good domains and Knowledge Devotion, on top of Turning.  For this exercise, we shall assume Cleric, for ease of entry.  Now we're at :
Spellthief 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ardent 3/Ur-Priest 1/Prestige Paladin 4/Mind Mage 10

We'll need two Psi-Spell feats, Psiotheurgist wouldn't be bad, Cerebremetamagic would rock, and of course Master Spellthief.  Also, if Psiotheurgist is the one that adds ML and CL together for a school and a discipline, we'll need one for each, which is one HELL of a feat investment.  Don't forget that Ur-Priest interacts in funky ways with stuff like Mind Mage (since it's a theurge class).  Each and every one of them will be getting a +3 from Mind Mage as well.  Now, the easiest way that's perfectly RAW legal is to buy some feats from locations and PsyRef them away from a tattoo or Linked Power.  That's gonna add up fast, though.  However...if the DM is cool with an ubercaster on crack, see if he'll let you PsyRef away a VoP    Initial caster/manifester level :
[spoiler]Spellthief      1+3                =   4
Ardent      11+3+4           =   18
Cleric      1+3           =   4      
Ur-Priest      11+5+3+2+8+2=   31
-------------------------------------------------------------
            57 CL/ML
            114 CL/ML with full Psiotheurgy
            228 CL/ML with full plus Mind Mage capstone[/spoiler]

I'll edit as I can, and we can work out how to get feats later (if we really wanna go all out, make it a tainted sorcerer base...so ALL casting/manifesting is based on an obscene taint score as an outsider with the evil subtype that gets to laugh at the taint score effects).

[bearsarebrown]

I actually stopped working on this when I got it to work. I realized that once you have pp for metamagic and a recharge method the game gets too silly.

If you took that Psiotheurgist feat for adding together schools your CL/ML for transmutation/psychometabolism(the best feat for it imo) would be 456. With a recharge method this gets utterly preposterous.

Are you ready for Vigor to grant 2250 Temp HP?
Are you ready for that Algid Enhancement to grant +227 to AC & Attack?
And another +227 from Inertial Armor?
Are you ready for Biofeedback to grant DR 86/-?

Just stop playing at that point. You win. 

[KellKheraptis]

I actually stopped working on this when I got it to work. I realized that once you have pp for metamagic and a recharge method the game gets too silly.

If you took that Psiotheurgist feat for adding together schools your CL/ML for transmutation/psychometabolism(the best feat for it imo) would be 456. With a recharge method this gets utterly preposterous.

Are you ready for Vigor to grant 2250 Temp HP?
Are you ready for that Algid Enhancement to grant +227 to AC & Attack?
And another +227 from Inertial Armor?
Are you ready for Biofeedback to grant DR 86/-?

Just stop playing at that point. You win. 

My main thing I want now other than dual 9's (off of a Wizard Psion would be sexy as HELL) would be a way to recharge spell slots.  Is there a way?  Also...with rebuilding we can get it down to Wiz 1/Erudite 1/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 8 for CL 20/ML 20 and 17th level progressions without even touching "Practiced XXX," but at this point, it begs the question why aren't we just adapting Incantatrix to an Erudite? 

[bearsarebrown]

There is a feat to create a single spell slot per day. That doesn't work for us.

You can lower the slot to a level 0 or 1 which you'll have a ton of.

[KellKheraptis]

Hmm...ok.  So looks like other than an insane CL (which is easy any number of ways), my initial goal isn't achievable with magic/psionics.  I'm going to make a thread for putting together the ultimate erudite, feel free to chime in!  Also, thinking about building a Mystran Auppenserite CoM and seeing where it can go...imagine all three of the main lists (though MSoA only gets 1 discipline...gonna have to expand that!).

[awaken DM golem]

I realized that once you have pp for metamagic and a recharge method the game gets too silly.

Are you sure ...  ?!

[McPoyo]

Bit of a necro, but remember that bonus PP for your primary manifesting mod is based on manifester level, not class level. Don't believe me? Check the EPH, page 18, How to determine bonus power points subheader, middle right of page.

Edit: Kell mind providing a link to that thread you started? I can't seem to find it...

[Nunkuruji]

Bit of a necro, but remember that bonus PP for your primary manifesting mod is based on manifester level, not class level. Don't believe me? Check the EPH, page 18, How to determine bonus power points subheader, middle right of page.

Edit: Kell mind providing a link to that thread you started? I can't seem to find it...

o.O, Practiced Manifester goes out of it's way to mention powers known and levels of powers, but makes no mention of not gaining a bonus to PP....

[McPoyo]

There's also no errata correcting that paragraph. Fun stuff, eh? Don't even need a recharge method, now.

[Widow]

I actually stopped working on this when I got it to work. I realized that once you have pp for metamagic and a recharge method the game gets too silly.

If you took that Psiotheurgist feat for adding together schools your CL/ML for transmutation/psychometabolism(the best feat for it imo) would be 456. With a recharge method this gets utterly preposterous.

Are you ready for Vigor to grant 2250 Temp HP?
Are you ready for that Algid Enhancement to grant +227 to AC & Attack?
And another +227 from Inertial Armor?
Are you ready for Biofeedback to grant DR 86/-?

Just stop playing at that point. You win.  

If you really boost your manifester/caster level that high, then recharge will be easy.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b

[Nunkuruji]

Bit of a necro, but remember that bonus PP for your primary manifesting mod is based on manifester level, not class level. Don't believe me? Check the EPH, page 18, How to determine bonus power points subheader, middle right of page.

Edit: Kell mind providing a link to that thread you started? I can't seem to find it...

o.O, Practiced Manifester goes out of it's way to mention powers known and levels of powers, but makes no mention of not gaining a bonus to PP....

I realized also, this makes it really easy to eat the Weapon of Legacy penalties on a psionic character, negating all but a few PP lost when using Table 4-9

[Zemyla]

Somewhat of a necro, but I figured out how to break the mind mage even more thoroughly than it was broken before.

Don't you hate how Psiotheurge only boosts your caster/manifester level for only one school and discipline?

Well, now there's help.  Soul crystal, from Magic of Incarnum!  Here's how it works:

Take Spell Focus (conjuration) and Psiotheurgy (Conjuration/Metacreativity).  Now, when you manifest soul crystal, its manifester level will be the sum of your caster and manifester levels, which should be in the 50s-60s with Twin Wells One Source.  This will let it accept hundreds of PPs, and make it last for at least 2 days.  It's an excellent sink for unused PPs at the end of the day, and you can give it to your familiar or psicrystal to have them manifest powers for you.

Now of course, if you use mental pinnacle, then Psiotheurgy no longer works, because you don't have a caster level.  So what you do instead is Psiotheurgy (Transmutation/Psychometabolism) to have the boost on mental pinnacle, Expanded Knowledge (metaconcert), and Expanded Knowledge (soul crystal).  The Expanded Knowledges are so they're on the power list of mental pinnacle.  So you share mental pinnacle with your familiar, animal companion, psicrystal, goldfish, and whatever else you can share with.  You then metaconcert with them, and dump all the extra power points into the concert.  You then manifest soul crystal as many times as possible, which again has a ridiculous ML and a ridiculous number of PP stuffed inside.  If you're going to do this a lot, I suggest you spend all the initial PPs you can to prepare mental pinnacles in lower-level slots; you should have potions of fox's cunning coming out your ears by now.  (Or at Epic, you can simply use Ignore Material Components, but that opens up a whole new can of worms.  Unfortunately, you can't take it early with dragonwrought cheese.)  You can come out of this with several hundred soul crystals, each lasting days or weeks, each with huge MLs, each with several hundred PPs stored inside them, and each of them usable by a commoner 1.

Oh, and for additional dirtiness, be an erudite instead of a psion or ardent, and you can stick arcane spells inside the soul crystals.  Have fun manifesting gate and forcecage dozens of times!