Author Topic: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?  (Read 15189 times)

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bearsarebrown

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The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« on: December 13, 2009, 10:12:32 AM »
Dragon 313 page 50. I'll give ya'll a rundown.

Requires two Psi-Spell feats, 2nd level or higher powers, 3rd level or higher arcane spells.
[spoiler]The feats aren't that bad, they're all in the same Dragon issue. The ones that stand out to me are Multi-Dimensional summons, which lets you apply Astral Construct things to your Summon Monsters. and... that's reall the only really good one. the rest are great, but focus on blasting. one imposes movement penalties, the other reduces AC, the other causes residual damage, the other does dex damage. but they all get Fort saves.[/spoiler]

Gives 8/10 progression for both manifesting and spellcasting.

Quote
Man this just sounds like true necromancer this class is a trap
Wait! It gets better. Let's see what his class levels give him.

1. Ignore somatic/verbal/material(<1g) componets for 2pp. eh, it's okay
2. Pay metamagic/psionics by sacrificing pp/spell-levels. 3pp to reduce spell level adjustment by one, or one spell level to reduce pp cost by 2. No limit except you cannot lower below starting level. holy shit
4. Deliver touch spells through Concussion power. SR messes this up a bit... eh
6. Mind-Mage levels/per day free Heighten Power by 1 level. nice but i don't really see a point
7. Allows for pp cost/spell level cost to reduce a spell below it's starting level. 8pp to low a spell one level, or one spell level to lower pp by 2. holy shit the nukes you can drop with this
10. +10 to CL and ML HOLY HELL. (btw you don't get more pp)

Now here is the question. How can I get double 9s? Or, at least, enough pp and a recharge method.

Ideas:
-Sublime Chord (I'd rather have Int as both governing stats. But I guess I could use Wilder/Sublime... But there doesn't seem to be enough class levels to fit this, as SC requires level 10...)
-Beholder Mage (but that's too cheesy :P)
-Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer entry gets you 15th level wizard and 17th psion. Not bad, but we need those 9th level spells!
-Kobold cheese could get Sorc/Wilder to 9s? Maybe? I don't know if the free sorc levels would outweigh the spell level lag.
-A divine adaptation would make this simple, UrPreist would fit right in.
-I don't think it'd be possible to do it with 9th level spells, but War Weaver would benefit greatly be being able to lower spell levels and effectively free metamagic.

Anyone got anything?

Would this work?
[spoiler]
Kalashtar
Wizard 2  Precocious Apprentence, earth sense, earth power
Ardent 1 practiced Manifester
Cerebremancer 7
Mind Mage 10

Would give 17th level wizard and 16 levels of ardent (but with a ML of 26, so all powers could be manifested.

I think this works, but I'd still much rather see it on a psion! Ardents just don't know enough powers! I guess expanded knowledge and feat leach your psycrystal...[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 12:14:31 PM by bearsarebrown »

Agita

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 02:16:32 PM »
I'd probably do Cheesewrought Kobold Sorcerer/Ardent. Kobold Sorcerer means you get 9th level spells no matter what, Ardent means you get to choose powers based on your ML rather than your class level.

Something like Sorcerer 2/Ardent 1/Sorcerer+1/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 6. Taqke Practiced Manifester to grab a 2nd-level power at ECL 3, use Loredrake and that ritual thingy to make your effective sorcerer level 6, take flaws to get the requsite feats.
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« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 02:19:25 PM by Agita »
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KellKheraptis

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »
A regular raced wizard could get 9's even, and preserve Ardent 9's with +10 ML o.o  I'd never realized they had THAT in there lol...Also, you can get triple nines with Arcane and Divine on the same progression if you go Ur-Priest.

EDIT : And ooooh does Subverted Psion also operate on Taint score?  So much for being MAD...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 03:21:19 PM by KellKheraptis »
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bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 05:06:07 PM »
Can you think of any ways to do it without Ardent? Or with the same casting stat?

Ardent may let you pick powers but you have so few and with only two mantles you just can't do to much. At least one of them will have to be used qualifying for the psi-spell feats then there's just to many things to do with the other one.

KellKheraptis

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 06:00:33 PM »
Can you think of any ways to do it without Ardent? Or with the same casting stat?

Ardent may let you pick powers but you have so few and with only two mantles you just can't do to much. At least one of them will have to be used qualifying for the psi-spell feats then there's just to many things to do with the other one.

How about going Erudite/Ur-Priest with my trick for making it arcane?  You can squeeze all of that in before level 10, and pick up triple 9's off Int using Academic Priest.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2009, 07:29:06 PM »
How about going Erudite/Ur-Priest with my trick for making it arcane?  You can squeeze all of that in before level 10, and pick up triple 9's off Int using Academic Priest.

That works it's just SO much cheese! Damn, I wish this class was more optimizable without getting so dirty.

I'm not super familiar with psionics, what are some recharge methods? Can any of them be done with only two mantles on an Ardent? Or with a couple Expanded Knowledges?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2009, 07:44:30 PM »
How about going Erudite/Ur-Priest with my trick for making it arcane?  You can squeeze all of that in before level 10, and pick up triple 9's off Int using Academic Priest.

That works it's just SO much cheese! Damn, I wish this class was more optimizable without getting so dirty.

I'm not super familiar with psionics, what are some recharge methods? Can any of them be done with only two mantles on an Ardent? Or with a couple Expanded Knowledges?
With Leadership (or Thrallherd), you can access just about any spell or psionic feat by using Feat Leech to "borrow" Expanded Knowledge (or whatever other feat you need). So yeah.

I had an old thread bookmarked about this, but it is gone. Here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=909845
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 07:46:24 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 08:38:23 PM »
How about going Erudite/Ur-Priest with my trick for making it arcane?  You can squeeze all of that in before level 10, and pick up triple 9's off Int using Academic Priest.

That works it's just SO much cheese! Damn, I wish this class was more optimizable without getting so dirty.

I'm not super familiar with psionics, what are some recharge methods? Can any of them be done with only two mantles on an Ardent? Or with a couple Expanded Knowledges?
With Leadership (or Thrallherd), you can access just about any spell or psionic feat by using Feat Leech to "borrow" Expanded Knowledge (or whatever other feat you need). So yeah.

I had an old thread bookmarked about this, but it is gone. Here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=909845

Can you repick the EK when you leech it?

awaken DM golem

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2009, 09:25:11 PM »
It's a different EK each time, so Yes.

Ardent can get to 9s with just 13 "spell" levels and PM feat.
The CL + ML stuff in Mind Mage should be an excelerant, just like Psiotheurgist feats.

Ardent 2 / Mind Mage 10 / Cereb 1 and the PM feat, gets you (at least) to the 9s on the Psi side.
That should be enough room to fit in some more goodies.

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2009, 09:39:04 PM »
Elan/Kalashtar/something naturally psinoic
Wizard 1 (Earth Sense, Earth Power)
Wizard 2
Ardent 1 (Practiced Manifester)

Would let me manifest 2nd level powers right? I'd have a ML of 3, and by expending my psionic focus it would only cost 2pp to manifest the power.

Mind Mage loses me two Wizard levels, so I can only afford one entry level!

But you make a good point, especially with the +10 ML boost, Ardent will get 9s really easy. From there? I don't know what to do.

EDIT: I know I'm getting stuck on this. He needs more powers known. Two mantles simply isn't enough, I don't even know if he has enough known powers to qualify AND not have horrible powers AND have a reliable recharge method. EK leech works but it's out of combat only.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 09:45:01 PM by bearsarebrown »

KellKheraptis

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2009, 09:46:58 PM »
Well, Linked Power abuse can allow for PsyChir of more powers, all you need is either a cohort Chameleon or a frequent PsyRef (from a tattoo) on your Psicrystal.  Feat Leech his EK, PsiChir the power, reset his EK, rinse and repeat until you have everything you want.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2009, 09:56:41 PM »
Well, Linked Power abuse can allow for PsyChir of more powers, all you need is either a cohort Chameleon or a frequent PsyRef (from a tattoo) on your Psicrystal.  Feat Leech his EK, PsiChir the power, reset his EK, rinse and repeat until you have everything you want.

I assume Linked Power somehow cuts down the insane XP cost that would have?

KellKheraptis

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2009, 10:29:50 PM »
Well, Linked Power abuse can allow for PsyChir of more powers, all you need is either a cohort Chameleon or a frequent PsyRef (from a tattoo) on your Psicrystal.  Feat Leech his EK, PsiChir the power, reset his EK, rinse and repeat until you have everything you want.

I assume Linked Power somehow cuts down the insane XP cost that would have?

RAW, all you pay is the PP.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2009, 10:30:40 PM »
Manifester arrows for fueling low level powers, and permanent psionic tattoos for what amounts to extra powers known (they'll cost double to refill, though). See my "Getting Re-wired" handbook (handbooks section of this board) for more on the tattoos.
[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2009, 10:33:09 PM »
Well, Linked Power abuse can allow for PsyChir of more powers, all you need is either a cohort Chameleon or a frequent PsyRef (from a tattoo) on your Psicrystal.  Feat Leech his EK, PsiChir the power, reset his EK, rinse and repeat until you have everything you want.

I assume Linked Power somehow cuts down the insane XP cost that would have?

RAW, all you pay is the PP.

Where are you seeing that in RAW? and thanks PhaedrusXY I'll check that out.

I think I got it!

Wizard 4 Earth Sense, Earth Power, Practiced Manifester (if you're a naturally pisonic race, this would be kosher, right?)
Psion 1 Expanded Knowledge.


ML 5, 4pp, can manifest a 3rd level power, and therefore can know a second level one.

You only get 14th level manifesting, which means only 7th level things, but, hell, I'd rather sack my psionic side then my spellcasting side.

What if I did this with Erudite instead of Psion? I'd be able to learn higher level powers then, right? Or would the early entry not work anymore?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 04:32:22 AM by bearsarebrown »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2009, 09:53:28 PM »
Feat Leech his EK, PsiChir the power, reset his EK
Since him gaining the power at the end takes it from the theif, wouldn't this end the effect? Perhaps not by RAW. stupid raw. :p

btw this thread is sexy
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 10:02:19 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

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awaken DM golem

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 12:52:28 AM »
B R B
Psions can't do the Ardents early access trick with Practiced Manifester.
Ardent has to get to level 2, because the 1st level requires level 1 powers only.

Wizard 1 with Precocious Apprentice (and arguing)
Ardent 2 with Practiced Manifester
or Psion 3 straight up

Wiz 1 / Psion 3 / Cereb 6 / Mind Mage 10 (not in that order)
The Psion version still gets to 9s, but the Arcane side doesn't, just 8s.

Wiz 1 / Ardent 2 / Cereb 7 / MM 10 ... gets to the Psi goodies earlier, Arcane still 8s.

If there's a way to get Sublime Chord in, and the higher levels of MM only above it,
I'd project Arcane 9s this way. But I don't know SC.

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 03:41:25 PM »
Psions can't do the Ardents early access trick with Practiced Manifester.
Ardent has to get to level 2, because the 1st level requires level 1 powers only.

If there's a way to get Sublime Chord in, and the higher levels of MM only above it,
I'd project Arcane 9s this way. But I don't know SC.


Why doesn't that work with Psion? EK gets you the power. Same with breaking in with Ardent 1.

Sublime Chord just can't work because it requires 13 ranks. And one of the best things about this class is it's capstone. And even if you went XXX 10/Sublime Chord 1/Mind Mage 9 you'd only be an 8th level sublime chord caster.

awaken DM golem

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 09:58:43 PM »
Psions gain power ("spell") levels via the more normal Class level routine, just like Wizards.
Ardents gain power levels via the very unusual Manifester Level trick, and only after level 1; just like no other class / kinda like a MIracle at Level 6 set-up.

**

Psiotheurgist feats or Bloodlines is the only other way.
Fit in level 1 to 4 of Mind Mage before the 1 level of SC.
Finish MM after, and then use Cereb, not sure where to fit in a Bloodline.
Psiotheurgist is just 2 feats, and the Ardent would be restricted to whatever School/Discipline combo is picked.
But heck maybe Mind Mage does all that anyways.
It's possible that Ardent 2 + Mind Mage X is all you need on the psionics side.
If so, MM 3 to 10 will advance SC all the way to 9s.

This way, just getting to Sublime Chord to speed things up with only Ardent 2 / Mind Mage 2 before it.

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Mind Mage! Can we get double 9s with this?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2009, 04:06:42 AM »
This way, just getting to Sublime Chord to speed things up with only Ardent 2 / Mind Mage 2 before it.

sigh... I think you might be right. My goal here was to get 9s with prepared arcane and with psion/wilder. That might just be undoable without Ur Priest faking arcane or a divine adaptation of the class.