Fochlucan Lyrist

[ZeroSpace]

I'm going to be playing in a new game on tuesdays, and I also get to be a player. Yay! That's not the reason I'm posting though. The reason I'm posting is because one of the other guys wants to play a Fochlucan Lyrist. At the very least, I know it's bad for advancing bard and druid casting starting at level 10(!), but other than that, I've got nothing. The guy is new to dnd, as most of his gaming to date has been White wolf.

What I want is a convicing argument against Lyrist, as well as a possible substitute. Below is a transcript from an email he sent, detailing what he wants.


'The concept I am going for is a feral bard, someone that looks monstorious, seems monstorious and evil but is in general a "nice" guy (As nice as true Neutral can get) just miss understood. The class is a druid/bard mix which lets me wear chainmail and carry metal weapons, as a druid, and levels both my arcane and my divine spell casting per level. Now the problem I have is the pre-reqs are 2 levels of rogue, 4 levels of bard, and 4 levels of druid. With three classes where should I specialize, should I focus on one classes attribute or should I be a jack of all trades master of none build? Oh the race is Razorclaw Shifter from Ebberon (They seem cool)'

[Bozwevial]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm

The Savage Bard from the above might work better for his character concept. If he's dead set on Fochlucan Lyrist, however, check with your DM to see if he could use a Ring of Evasion to meet the prerequisites, which might work better.

[Agita]

First off, shifter is a bad choice for any Bard build. They get a hit to Cha, which is a no-no. [spelling nazi]Also, monstrous isn't spelled that way.[/spelling nazi]
On to Fochlucan Lyrist. In and of itself, it's actually pretty cool, but you need to know what you're doing. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to newbies, especially not newbies at optimization. The skill prereqs suck, and if the DM doesn't let you qualify with a Ring of Evasion (beg if you have to), the two levels of Rogue/whatever you'll need are a kick in the teeth, plain and simple. It's not impossible to optimize, but hard to do so.
Consider Arcane Hierophant for a replacement PrC. You get to advance Wild Shape, which feeds into the 'monstrous' flavor, and the prereqs are much easier It also lets you ignore ASF, even in medium and heavy armor (so long as it's armor a Druid could wear, like hide or Dragonhide armor). See this build I posted a while back for a character that could have this kind of flavor. It might be a bit complicated for a newbie, though, so you might want to tone it down depending on his comprehension of complex game mechanics.

EDIT: Consider Desert Half-Orc as an alternative to Shifter. It's suitably monstrous, but has much better ability adjustments for a Druid/Bard.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

can you pick up evasion with survivor instead?

[ZeroSpace]

Well, sounds like a good start. What would be some good routes for him to take, as for as overall character build? To the best of my knowledge, if we preserve the 'wild kid' feel, he won't care too much about the abilities. I would churn out a build myself, but my Bard-fu is still lacking. Even just pointers would be good, as I'm currently working on a Bard Handbook.

One other thing. For those who were unable to infer from the copypasta, we're playing at lvl 10, with standard WBL. No more than 16.3K on one item.

[wotmaniac]

See this build I posted a while back for a character that could have this kind of flavor. It might be a bit complicated for a newbie, though, so you might want to tone it down depending on his comprehension of complex game mechanics.

I'm still a little partial to my post on that thread (no offense to Agita  )
for Fochlucan Lyrist, (if you actually have to have the evasion class feature) drop 2 levels of druid for the 2 levels of rogue.  at level 10, you will still have 6th/7th level casting, and 7th level bardic music.

Oh, BTW, what resources are allowed/restricted?  that's kinda important.

[Agita]

See this build I posted a while back for a character that could have this kind of flavor. It might be a bit complicated for a newbie, though, so you might want to tone it down depending on his comprehension of complex game mechanics.

I'm still a little partial to my post on that thread (no offense to Agita  )

None taken. They're different builds, and I don't have that Dragon issue, so I don't know how awesome or not GW is. I don't like taking Bard levels, though.

[wotmaniac]

See this build I posted a while back for a character that could have this kind of flavor. It might be a bit complicated for a newbie, though, so you might want to tone it down depending on his comprehension of complex game mechanics.

I'm still a little partial to my post on that thread (no offense to Agita  )

None taken. They're different builds, and I don't have that Dragon issue, so I don't know how awesome or not GW is. I don't like taking Bard levels, though.

well, I wouldn't say that GW is "awesome", per se, but it does have a few nice cookies:
- a free feat (the ability to effect plant types with bardic music)
- SUPER easy prereqs
- it dual-advances casting -- when playing a dual-caster, the more you can dual-advance your casting, the better
- continues to advance bardic music (the more of this, the better)
- you're done with it by 10th level, leaving you wide open for anything else (such as full advancement in AH or FL; or SC + AH/FL)
Basically, anything that lets you have 17th-19th level casting in 2 casting classes AND (in the case of FL) 17th-19th level bardic music depending on how you build the first 5 levels), without having to go through multiclassing/PrC acrobatics, is good (which goes back to my basic philosophy of "simple is good" -- see #7).
My conclusion on GW: by itself, it's pretty cool; as a 5-level filler for a bard-based AH or FL, it is in fact awesome.

[Prak, the Mad]

'The concept I am going for is a feral bard, someone that looks monstorious, seems monstorious and evil but is in general a "nice" guy (As nice as true Neutral can get)

Quick point of interest: there's nothing stopping any given alignment from being generally nice, not even CE.

[ZeroSpace]

Books allowed are whatever we have, I have most of 3.5 (roughly 70%, missing mostly stuff like setting specific stuff and most Races Of). Sadly, don't have any Dragon Mags, so thats out.

On a side note, I should really make a list of my books, so I can post what I have. For now, assume I have any relevant WotC books, but provide full book names so I can state otherwise.

Savage Bard does seem like a good fit. Any good Bard PrC's, or PrC's in general, that would suit the build?

[Johannixx]

I thought multiclass druids were still restricted from metallic armors and non-druid weapons, because it was a spiritual/philosophical restriction, not a lack-of-training restriction.

[Agita]

I thought multiclass druids were still restricted from metallic armors and non-druid weapons, because it was a spiritual/philosophical restriction, not a lack-of-training restriction.

They are. Fochlucan Lyrist lifts that restriction.

[InnaBinder]

For a Wildman Fochlucan Lyrist, you might try:
Rilkan Rogue 3/Wildshape Ranger 5/Sorcerer 2/ FL 10.  I'd use the Wilderness Rogue ACF from UA, and the Animal Companion Sorcerer ACF from the same source.  Rilkan Rogue 3's ACF gets you Bardic Knowledge as essentially the only reason to use that race  .  Work with the DM to get a way to speak Druidic.  Needs Practiced Caster x2 -yuck- but paves the way for using Incarnum feats to augment utility in whichever direction the player chooses to go.

[Sinfire Titan]

For a Wildman Fochlucan Lyrist, you might try:
Rilkan Rogue 3/Wildshape Ranger 5/Sorcerer 2/ FL 10.  I'd use the Wilderness Rogue ACF from UA, and the Animal Companion Sorcerer ACF from the same source.  Rilkan Rogue 3's ACF gets you Bardic Knowledge as essentially the only reason to use that race  .  Work with the DM to get a way to speak Druidic.  Needs Practiced Caster x2 -yuck- but paves the way for using Incarnum feats to augment utility in whichever direction the player chooses to go.