Partial solution to Level Adjustment sucking

[Chemus]

Level Adjustment, as implemented, fails to do its job of making characters pay for their toys while being competitive. Only a very few LA'd races are even worth considering, even with buyback.

The solution I'm reposting, so as not to derail this thread, goes thus:

For PC's, add racial HD equal to appropriate LA. Allow retraining at intervals equal to Non-Adjusted Racial HD, trading the HD from LA first. Once the LA HD go away, reduce the intervals as you replace the non-adjusted racial HD. So for the Unicorn, at every 4th level or HD, he may trade 1 racial HD for a class level, thus he starts as an 8th level character with 6HD, and 2 levels. At 12th, he has 5HD and 7 levels, at 16th, 4 HD and 12 levels, and at 20th, 3HD and 17 levels. Going into Epic, the unicorn replaces another HD at 23rd, 25th, and 26th. This keeps all HD, HP, BAB and saves at somewhat competitive levels, and allows for characters to have options.

What are your thoughts?

[RobbyPants]

I agree with the title in that it's a partial solution.  It makes it suck less.  One big problem with LA races is that not all are created equal.  Some are totally worth their LA, some are only worth it with buy-back, and some are never worth it.  So, a solution like this kind of pushes the thresholds a bit to make some races more worth while.

I do like that it's fairly easy to use.  I also like that you get HD for your LA to help with survivability issues.

Although, another problem with LA stems from the current class system as well.  In a game where you never want to give up caster levels, only the most ridiculous fixes will make playing most LA races as a caster class worth it.  Sadly, in order to fix LA, the entire system needs to be looked at again.

[bhu]

I always thought of trying a campaign where you subtract Racial Hit Dice from LA because you assume that their abilities are what they get with the Racial Hit Dice, but that goes fubar when you get things like some of the Fey with mad LA and no racial HD....

[Bloody Initiate]

This is how my group does bloodlines, because skipping a level didn't really make sense to us (We somehow failed to look at it as LA). On your bloodline level you gain a racial hit die according to your base race (not the race of you bloodline). Another option is to create a terrible hit die that is only there to be a hit die. Basically it'd be like taking a level of commoner (Worst of everything, but it's a hit die).

My group also uses fractional bonuses, which make that weak bonus not entirely worthless.

[JaronK]

The big issue here of course is low LAs that are already worth it, such as the Half Minotaur or Mineral Warrior.  As you've set it, they're basically free.  Consider a Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Goliath, which as far as your rules go would be a 4th level character to start (three HD, one level) and by level 7 would have no cost at all.

JaronK

[Chemus]

Aren't each of those worth 1 LA? So, at 4th, you're down to 3, as you said, at 6th you're down to 2, at 8th you're down to 1, and at 9th you're free.

[JaronK]

You said intervals equal to non adjusted racial HD, which that list I just gave has none of.

But even still, why would anyone starting at 9th level or higher ever not just start throwing that on there, assuming they're a melee?  Likewise, wouldn't any stealth type just slap the Dark and Shadow templates on whatever they'd otherwise play if they're starting at high level?  Would every Kobold be a White Dragonspawn?  And do we really want every charisma caster to be Phrenic?

JaronK

[Bloody Initiate]

The big issue here of course is low LAs that are already worth it, such as the Half Minotaur or Mineral Warrior.  As you've set it, they're basically free.  Consider a Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Goliath, which as far as your rules go would be a 4th level character to start (three HD, one level) and by level 7 would have no cost at all.

JaronK

I think that's as much a problem with the people who created the races and templates as with the LA sucking. Consider the Saint template vs. Fiendish or Celestial. All three are horribly written trash that should've never made it past their first drafts (Saint should have been a PrC and Fiendish and Celestial should have been feats). That's not a problem with the LA system, it's a problem with the people who wrote and approved them as well as with the failure to offer a different system than LA as a means of pricing free add-ons.

The other problem with trying to "fix" LA is that LA is supposed to suck. It's a penalty. The real isue is they called it something other than a penalty, and didn't ever think of things scaling (Something that's being discussed in the rebuild polls) until later supplements.

[JaronK]

Well sure, but blame's not the point.  If you do something like this solution, you have to consider all the edge cases, both the really powerful stuff and the really weak stuff.  This may involve saying something like "here's my solution, but you can't use Half Minotaur or Saint."  As long as it's considered.

JaronK

[Chemus]

You're all quite right that I failed to present a complete solution and that it doesn't work well in many cases. In part I was hoping to get discussion on how to really fix the ability to play monsters. (I did! Woohoo! )

I do think that it works better for fun play than LA as written does.

To fix the large oversight that JaronK and bhu have pointed out, the wording must change to incorporate LA's additions without racial HD: "...Allow retraining at intervals equal to Non-Adjusted Racial HD, trading the HD from LA first. If no racial hit dice are associated with a source of LA, then the hit dice it adds count towards the minimum interval to trade HD for levels. Once the LA HD go away, reduce the intervals..."

That reduces the problem from being free fast trades for low or no HD creatures. The Mineral Warrior and Half Minotaur templates would have a mid level cost too, but it would scale a bit...I understand the need in balancing to err on the side of weakness; it can be hard to take away toys that folks have been playing with. It's much easier to give more power out to compensate for weaknesses.

This truly is a patch, rather than a fix.

To fix LA, we'd have to make it actually balance out first. What I mean is that a creature's hit dice should definitely equal its CR. That CR, too, should accurately reflect it's utility in a group. For many monsters this would mean removing or reducing abilities, for others it would simply mean adjusting the HD or CR. Any monster that "casts spells as an [X] level [Class]" would actually have those levels, with the HD, saves and BAB, and then a enough HD to cover those special abilities that need paying for.

This still isn't complete by any means; just sort of brainfartingstorming...

Thanks for the input so far guys!

[JaronK]

At this point, you still have to deal with the fact that the system is free if you start at a higher level... a 10th level character, for example, could start with 3LA for free.  If these are powerful LA (Shadow+Dark, Mineral Warrior+Half Minotaur+Lolth Touched, etc) that's going to have a significant effect. 

So, there still needs to be some cost down the line even if you start at higher levels.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

At this point, you still have to deal with the fact that the system is free if you start at a higher level... a 10th level character, for example, could start with 3LA for free.  If these are powerful LA (Shadow+Dark, Mineral Warrior+Half Minotaur+Lolth Touched, etc) that's going to have a significant effect. 

So, there still needs to be some cost down the line even if you start at higher levels.

JaronK

That's a similar problem to buy-back, although it takes longer to pay off that way.

[JaronK]

But buyback at least costs something.  Maybe not a lot, but there's still an Exp hit.  This version is completely free.

JaronK

[Uriel_Ventris]

But buyback at least costs something.  Maybe not a lot, but there's still an Exp hit.  This version is completely free.

JaronK

The TO board has a field day with things like Thought Bottles, so buy-back is hardly an expensive worry when you take those into account.

And Thought Bottles end up being a dime-a-dozen if shenanigans with Fabricate or ladder -> 10ft-pole haxx are used.

[Chemus]

Buyback is too highly priced past about +2, in my opinion. Barring remaking the character and monster system to remove the power differential, how would you fix LA (or improve on my system you see enough merit)?

[JaronK]

The TO board has a field day with things like Thought Bottles, so buy-back is hardly an expensive worry when you take those into account.

And Thought Bottles end up being a dime-a-dozen if shenanigans with Fabricate or ladder -> 10ft-pole haxx are used.

And yet there's a difference between "there's a cost here, but by using infinite money tricks you could buy something that significantly reduces the cost" and "this is totally free without any exploits."  In one case, the DM can clearly see that you're using hacks as it where, and will only allow it if he wants a game that has infinite money or all those other thought bottle tricks anyway.  In the other case, you're proposing a standard rule that just makes it so it's completely logical to always start as a weird race, and always totally beneficial to do so.

And Chemus, I don't know how to improve the system very much.  I'm just letting you know the results of your fix and seeing if you can tweak it into something better than the original system (right now I'd say it's worse, because for higher level starting games it just makes it so everyone wants a few good templates slapped on).  If I thought your idea had no potential at all, I wouldn't have commented.

JaronK

[Chemus]

If I added a clause that made it so you spent the level, it would be buyback, but with lower level differentials. As is, of course, you're right that it's free...dman11235, or perhaps you JaronK, had suggested feats a year or two ago...that would probably be better.

Edit: So, every third level beyond the LA (still adding extra HD equal to the LA), you may trade one HD for a class level. You don't gain a feat that level, or rather the feat is called Racial Improvement. Or some-such.

[DavidWL]

This still doesn't work for races that are "good".  Fundamentally, the problem is that level adjustment isn't well balanced against each other - the value of some diminishes, but some does not.

Examples:
- Sharn  (4HD, +5LA)
- Tome Dragons (3HD, +5 LA)

If you ignore the "spell like ability" part, which is just broken, then they are reasonably balanced.  The "problem" is:
- they give abilities which scale very well with level (powerful spellcasting and more)
- they have low HD and high LA

I'm trying to see how to make this work, but right now, I can't see how to do it except on a case-by-case basis.  (What about white dragonspawn?  What about magic in the blood half-fey?).  There are just too many exceptions.

Best,
David

[JaronK]

True.  LA is like CR... it has no specific formula (at least none that was followed properly) and as such is so arbitrary that anything based off it is borked.  You'd pretty much have to redo the whole thing from scratch to really get a workable solution, because anything that makes Half Dragons and such playable will make Half Minotaurs and the like rediculous.

JaronK

[Thine Doom Be Had]

I know this sounds dumb, and I'm pretty sure I'll get run out of here, but why not put a stipulation that states that they need to present it to the DM first. I know, "rule 0 does not mean it's fix" but it's the easiest way to do things sometimes. Or specifically allow like one inherited template and/or accquired template, and of course one race. And if specific templates are the problem, well don't allow this vairent for them.