Author Topic: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds  (Read 6863 times)

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Bloody Initiate

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One of the players in my group plays primarily for the social interaction, but doesn't want to be useless.

She assumes that effectiveness as a character is easily acquired and so just tells us to make her the best character we can without much input. We're currently working her toward a Persisting Cleric, but her distaste for even the most marginal levels of complexity is overwhelming.

I enjoy the complexity and so all of my best concepts are hard for beginners to master. She will be a beginner forever, and there are no two ways about that.

So, I request the aid of more practiced hands than my own at creating the SIMPLEST but simultaneously most effective character builds possible. I know that that it won't be the finest machine in anyone's history, and I expect no miracles, but any help anyone can offer would be much appreciated.

Criteria:

It is a level 5 campaign atm. So builds should aim for level 5 and plan for advancement
No Dragon Magazine without the GM's approval, and the GM's approval is highly unlikely (I don't blame him)
At the moment, nothing that was originally 3.0 is allowed or in use. This includes a lot of Faerun, Oriental Adventures, BoVD and BoED.
We use a superior feat system that grants players their general feats on level 1 and every even-numbered level afterward instead of the every-third-level progression.
We use fractional base bonuses

The player has been shoved into the cleric role since she first started playing D&D and no one has sought to rescue her from it. She's sick of playing pure healer and wanted something dangerous this time around. (This criteria was edited into a later version of this post. Those who posted support characters still have my thanks for their suggestions)

Simplicity level required: Assume the player has only enough comprehension to throw the dice and read their results. She has slightly more ability than this, but I'm not underestimating

Complexity allowed: The character can be cross-classed a bunch of times if necessary. What has to be simple is her gameplay not her design. This works because no matter how many times she's done it she won't learn to level herself and either I or the GM just end up doing it anyway.

Effectiveness required: Any. I list our party below. We need any strong character we can get. We have mostly fighters and rogue-types. We're weak on casting, but that's our fate. Most of the players decide their character concept without much evaluation of what role they'll play in the group and then stick with said concepts. The player I'm posting this for and I are the only ones really interested in flexing to the party. There's a third guy, but he's unpredictable.

Our party is made up of three BSFs, one rogue-flavored rogue, a soon-to-be-persisting cleric (The player in question's current character), and my rogueish... thing (I am in the first 5 ECLs of a 17th level build, so my role is hazy. I scout but can't track)

The simplest builds I have ever created are as follows:
Warforged Fighter 4/Sorceror 1 (Later traded for Duskblade)/Dragon Disciple + (Got to level 8)
Monk 5 or 6/Shintao Monk + (got to level 11)
Fighter 12 (Ranged Combat focus)

As you can see, I do need all the help I can get.

More suggestions are better, especially since the rest of our group is about as versed in the system as the player I post this for and I could make use of a lot of different suggested builds.

Thank you

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 05:26:56 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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CantripN

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Build
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 03:29:58 PM »
Simple to play... Would a Bard do? Simply pick out the best spells and explain what each does (stick to the obvious ones), and Inspire Courage is as simple as it gets.

You do need a spellcaster, and prepared seems too much, so some sort of Spontaneous Caster seems wise.

The character I had the most fun playing, ever, was a Bard. Pure Bard until level 9, no less, at which point I tool a single level of Warblade and went Sublime Chord. Simple, effective, and while I was a pony, I had quite a few tricks, and all were good.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Build
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 03:32:31 PM »
Simple to play... Would a Bard do? Simply pick out the best spells and explain what each does (stick to the obvious ones), and Inspire Courage is as simple as it gets.

You do need a spellcaster, and prepared seems too much, so some sort of Spontaneous Caster seems wise.

The character I had the most fun playing, ever, was a Bard. Pure Bard until level 9, no less, at which point I tool a single level of Warblade and went Sublime Chord. Simple, effective, and while I was a pony, I had quite a few tricks, and all were good.

That might work. We're a large party so the bard is probably most effective. I have a hate/hate relationship with bards, so they exist in a blind spot for me.

Thanks for the suggestion. Any more are welcome.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 03:41:42 PM »
Warmage: literally point-and-shoot at that level and she doeen't have to worry about silly things like picking a spell list

Barbarian: point-and-charge

Those are my two choices for novice players

Operation Shoestring

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 04:08:28 PM »
Druid is pretty impossible to screw up.  Just pick wildshape forms ahead of time.

I second Bard though.  Spamming Improvisation gets you through a lot of stuff, and taking stuff that boosts Inspire Courage is pretty straightforward.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 04:13:27 PM »
Druid is pretty impossible to screw up.  Just pick wildshape forms ahead of time.

I second Bard though.  Spamming Improvisation gets you through a lot of stuff, and taking stuff that boosts Inspire Courage is pretty straightforward.

What types of things boost Inspire Courage? As I said the class has existed in a blindspot for me for a long time, so I have little to no capacity with bards. You don't have to waste your time accomodating my poor education, I just would want to build it as well as possible. After this week I can do more research on them.
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Tshern

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 04:25:32 PM »
Words of Creation doubles it.

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CantripN

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 04:28:05 PM »
Short list:
Vest of Legends (DMG2): +5 Effective Bard Levels.
Chaos Music (Dragon): +5 Effective Bard Levels for Music.
Song of the Heart (ECS, Sub. for Suggestion at level 6): +1 to all Bardic Music. All of them, with examples.
Words of Creation (BoED): Double Effect of Bardic Music, take some Nonlethal Damage.
Inspirational Boost (1st level spell): +1 to Inspire Courage.
Badge of Honor (MIC): +1 to Inspire Courage.

...and let's not forget Dragonfire Inspiration!

Healing Hymn (CC, ACF) + Insignia of Healing (3rd level spell) + Spellshard (Insignia of Healing) is a lot of healing, right there, too. And there's the ever amazing Sublime Chord, for later!
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KellKheraptis

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 04:47:41 PM »
You might also consider a Dragonfire Adept or Warlock.  Both are capable BFC-ers with all day powers, and neither has nearly the amount of complexity inherent in a caster.  You could go ahead and make a quick and dirty Ur-lock for the player, and maybe show them the best few spells of each level, and as a fallback they'll have like a 30d6 tacnuke for an Eldritch Blast (assuming the DM allows Eldritch Disciple to advance Hellfire Warlock, since RAW it can).
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 04:56:09 PM »
You might also consider a Dragonfire Adept or Warlock.  Both are capable BFC-ers with all day powers, and neither has nearly the amount of complexity inherent in a caster.  You could go ahead and make a quick and dirty Ur-lock for the player, and maybe show them the best few spells of each level, and as a fallback they'll have like a 30d6 tacnuke for an Eldritch Blast (assuming the DM allows Eldritch Disciple to advance Hellfire Warlock, since RAW it can).
I will second this suggestion. Slap the dragonborn template on whatever she plays, and the Entangling Exhalation feat. Now she breathes to entangle enemies, can use magic items for whatever via UMD, and has a few invocations that she can use at will. Give her wands of whatever cleric spells you actually care about, and just tell her the DC she has to hit to use them. And just ask her to use them when it is called for.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 04:58:38 PM »
You might also consider a Dragonfire Adept or Warlock.  Both are capable BFC-ers with all day powers, and neither has nearly the amount of complexity inherent in a caster.  You could go ahead and make a quick and dirty Ur-lock for the player, and maybe show them the best few spells of each level, and as a fallback they'll have like a 30d6 tacnuke for an Eldritch Blast (assuming the DM allows Eldritch Disciple to advance Hellfire Warlock, since RAW it can).
I will second this suggestion. Slap the dragonborn template on whatever she plays, and the Entangling Exhalation feat. Now she breathes to entangle enemies, can use magic items for whatever via UMD, and has a few invocations that she can use at will. Give her wands of whatever cleric spells you actually care about, and just tell her the DC she has to hit to use them. And just ask her to use them when it is called for.

I wouldn't even bother with the extra dice rolls from UMD.  You don't autofail on a 1, so get the check to within 1 of any item she'd use, and it'd be an autosucceed, so then it's point and cast.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 05:01:57 PM »
You might also consider a Dragonfire Adept or Warlock.  Both are capable BFC-ers with all day powers, and neither has nearly the amount of complexity inherent in a caster.  You could go ahead and make a quick and dirty Ur-lock for the player, and maybe show them the best few spells of each level, and as a fallback they'll have like a 30d6 tacnuke for an Eldritch Blast (assuming the DM allows Eldritch Disciple to advance Hellfire Warlock, since RAW it can).
I will second this suggestion. Slap the dragonborn template on whatever she plays, and the Entangling Exhalation feat. Now she breathes to entangle enemies, can use magic items for whatever via UMD, and has a few invocations that she can use at will. Give her wands of whatever cleric spells you actually care about, and just tell her the DC she has to hit to use them. And just ask her to use them when it is called for.

I wouldn't even bother with the extra dice rolls from UMD.  You don't autofail on a 1, so get the check to within 1 of any item she'd use, and it'd be an autosucceed, so then it's point and cast.
Or she could take 10 with the warlock.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

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Re: HELP! with an Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 05:07:49 PM »
Those are definitely approaching good levels of simplicity + effectiveness. Thanks very much for the suggestions.

Also about UMD, I'm pretty sure most of our group was unaware that this skill existed until recently (I pointed it out to the BSF who was stocking cure wands for himself) and I'm positive most of them didn't know it was REQUIRED to actually activate a wand so I like the idea of taking her enough Warlock to let her auto-succeed UMD checks in case our GM ever decides to actually enforce UMD's existance.

Is an "Ur-Lock" something like Warlock/Ur-Priest/Hellfire Warlock/Eldritch Disciple? While I've been a min-maxer since I learned the rules I'm new to the min-max community and its lingo.

I also ask because the player wanted to be able to do damage, not just hang back in support (a criteria I failed to mention in my OP and will edit in after this post), and our DM recently discovered (and is fond of) the Hellfire Warlock and Binder level to eliminate con damage (Strongheart Vest is a suggestion I'm holding in reserve for when I need it). The player who I'm working on this character for currently plays a persisting cleric who will persist not via DMM but via Metaphysical Spellshaper (From Book of Erotic Fantasy) and a level of Binder. So I'm guessing the suggested Warlock build might be easier to get approved if approval became an issue.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 05:21:38 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Endarire

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Re: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 07:25:04 PM »
Hood.  Simple in concept and highly effective.  (Run, jump, stab, kill.)
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

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Re: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 07:38:28 PM »
Hood.  Simple in concept and highly effective.  (Run, jump, stab, kill.)
yes, because someone who's not up on mechanics is going to be able to keep track of that many classes.   :rollseyes

JaronK

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Re: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 07:47:33 PM »
Druid.  She'll take Natural Spell at 6.  Just give her a list of some awesome combat forms (Fleshraker) and some utility forms (Desmoderu Hunting Bat) and she's good to go. 

Or the good old Orc Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 4 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush, and a big weapon.  Nothing says dangerous like that, and it's simple.

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Re: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2009, 08:06:21 PM »
Level 5 Conjurer (with spontaneous summoner variant to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster). Add together two level 3 slots to get a level 4. With Earth Spell and Heighten, you can have a level 5 spell ready to cast. I'd use that and Fiery Burst. Choose a spot, 5d6 damage burst within 5 feet. Exceedingly simple to play. Heck, you could probably take Ability Focus (Fiery Burst) to make that DC 17+Int.

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Re: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2009, 08:18:58 PM »
Dragon Fire adept + Entangling Exhaustion + Human.  Fun and Simple, just run up and breath damage.  Don't forget Endure Elements, because it means never having to say: "Sorry".
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DerWille

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Re: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2009, 08:38:56 PM »
Hmm for this, I'd probably go with

Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5

 This will let her play as a non-magical shapeshifter who mainly focuses on being sneaky and turning into various fun things like dinosaurs, giants, abberations, and dragons. She could even turn into fey for social situtations (Nymph anyone?) It would be easier to manage than a Druid who has to worry about this and spells.

 Most of her combats are going to revolve around "I turn into a cool ass monster and beat the crap out of something via pounce/grapple/trip".

The most complicated thing for this is going to be explaining to her how wildshape works, but really, that's just this:
"You can only turn into things between these sizes and of these types. They can't have more HD than your level. You get their physical stats but not their hp. You get anything with a Ex, but not sp or su.

This requires 3 books outside of core.

Complete Adventurer
Complete Warrior
Unearthed Arcana

 If not that, then I'm with everyone else, "Druid 20."

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: HELP! with making Exceedingly Simple & Exceptionally Competent Builds
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2009, 08:51:01 PM »
Hood.  Simple in concept and highly effective.  (Run, jump, stab, kill.)

Fine, you're going to continue pimp hood, are you?

Time for me to counter with my fallback pimping.

Give her two levels of the Ghost savage progression.  Spam telekinesis every d4+1 rounds.

Base class should be warlock, since it's so simple.
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