Wild Shape Druid vs Shapeshift variant (PHB II)

[Uriel_Ventris]

I have been talking to one of my gaming group, and he thinks the shapeshifting variant should be treated as Wild Shape for all interactions between feats and items.

I told him repeatedly that they are not the same thing. And he just complains that I shouldn't be such a stickler for the rules.

Are there any people who treat them as the same thing to allow for things like Natural Spell and Wilding Clasps to function in the same way for a Shapeshifting Druid?

Thanks in advance!

[PhaedrusXY]

I absolutely think they should be treated as the same thing. The Shapeshift variant is already crappy enough without gimping it further with strict interpretations. Of course, this isn't RAW, but who gives a crap about RAW in a real game, anyway?

[Uriel_Ventris]

Clearly my entire group, since they care more about the story than they do about the rules or interactions in combat.

And it doesn't need a very strict interpretation to see that they are not the same ability.

[archangel.arcanis]

No they aren't the same ability but one is made as a toned down alternative to the other. Plus look through all of your books real quick, how many mention any alternate class abilities not in that book or any classes not in that book or phb. The answer will be slightly above 0 and that is if you have a large collection.

Be reasonable with your players for things that Wizards can't/won't include in the books. If you want to be very literal in your interpretation of RAW please visit the TO boards and then decide if you want to let your player play something there since it is RAW as well.

edit to add: After re-reading your 2nd post i'm kinda confused. By the way you worded your post it seems like you are saying your group is really focused on RAW, but the content of your post makes it seem like they don't really care what the rule system is.
Also it is rude to ask for people's opinions and immediately tell them they are wrong. If you came here looking for someone to validate your view point, then you will have to wait a while since most people here are pretty liberal with the rules unless it makes things broken.

[PhaedrusXY]

Clearly my entire group, since they care more about the story than they do about the rules or interactions in combat.

I assume this was in response to this:

who gives a crap about RAW in a real game, anyway?

RAW = Rules As Written, i.e. blindly following the letter of the rules, even if it is stupid. That doesn't sound like your group.

And it doesn't need a very strict interpretation to see that they are not the same ability.

No, it doesn't. It also doesn't take a very critical eye to see that Shapeshift is hands down weaker than Wildshape. So why make it even weaker by denying it the same tools that the Wildshape druid gets? Slavishly following the rules for their own sake is foolish. There are plenty of overpowered, underpowered, and downright broken things in the rules. The game is better if you fix them, rather than follow them blindly.

[Uriel_Ventris]

My group does not care about the RAW of things such as wild shape vs shapeshifting. They would sonner throw aside what little sense there is in the game, in order to pursue 'fluffy bunny' characters.

In an effort to reign them in, since they play more for flavor than anything else, even when they are doing things outside what's allowed, I am going to enforce the RAW a bit more than they would probably like.

Wild Shape is based entirely on the character's druid level. Wild shape can be increased in duration/uses per day/diversity of forms through items/PrCs. As well as having a specific set of items directly related to it [I will list them all if needed].

Shapeshifting cannot, whether this is an unfortunate oversight in which the author of the alternate ability forgot to include the clause "...is counted as Wild Shape for using feats [Natural Spell] or items [Wilding Clasps]..." or not.

[PhaedrusXY]

You've already got your mind made up on this. Why are you even asking us?

[Uriel_Ventris]

I was attempting to determine if there's actually a baseline within the rules to say that the two abilities are so similar that they can be considered interchangeable in regards to feats and items.

Since there isn't, and everything I have seen points back to the desire that they were that similar, I see no more reason to discus it.

[EjoThims]

I was attempting to determine if there's actually a baseline within the rules to say that the two abilities are so similar that they can be considered interchangeable in regards to feats and items.

This idea directly contradicts your opening statement:

Are there any people who treat them as the same thing to allow for things like Natural Spell and Wilding Clasps to function in the same way for a Shapeshifting Druid?

The most sensical thing to do is allow the weaker version of an ability to be enhanced by everything that modifies the baseline ability, but you haven't shown yourself so far to be especially sensible, so you will likely stick with what you made your mind up about before even starting this thread.

As well, the standard throughout most communities is that such alternate features do continue to gain support from anything made to support the base feature, since the alternate is meant as a replacement and came later, it would be silly to assume it was meant to circumvent that support.

[DerWille]

My group does not care about the RAW of things such as wild shape vs shapeshifting. They would sonner throw aside what little sense there is in the game, in order to pursue 'fluffy bunny' characters.

In an effort to reign them in, since they play more for flavor than anything else, even when they are doing things outside what's allowed, I am going to enforce the RAW a bit more than they would probably like.

Wild Shape is based entirely on the character's druid level. Wild shape can be increased in duration/uses per day/diversity of forms through items/PrCs. As well as having a specific set of items directly related to it [I will list them all if needed].

Shapeshifting cannot, whether this is an unfortunate oversight in which the author of the alternate ability forgot to include the clause "...is counted as Wild Shape for using feats [Natural Spell] or items [Wilding Clasps]..." or not.

 Dude, if your group likes to play fluffy bunny characters and it's not doing anything to hurt the game (i.e. kill fun), why care? It also seems like you're purposely trying to be a dick and ruin everyone else's fun for the sake of the holy RAW. The holy RAW makes even less sense than fluffy bunny characters. This is a game where people farm wishes, turn cattle to salt, and break ladders into 10ft poles for an economy.

[RobbyPants]

While Natural Spell would be useful for a shapeshifting druid, it's not as important as it is to a regular druid.  Do remember that shapeshifting takes a swift action, so you can change in or out once per round.

Of course, any feat or ability that references your number of Wild Shape uses per day would be utterly useless for a shapeshift druid.  Other than that, it probably won't break your game to let them use wilding clasps, and similar items/feats.

[Viletta Vadim]

No, it doesn't. It also doesn't take a very critical eye to see that Shapeshift is hands down weaker than Wildshape. So why make it even weaker by denying it the same tools that the Wildshape druid gets? Slavishly following the rules for their own sake is foolish. There are plenty of overpowered, underpowered, and downright broken things in the rules. The game is better if you fix them, rather than follow them blindly.

Mind that for some, the very purpose of the Shapeshift variant is to be weaker than Wild Shape, to help reign in the monster that is the Druid.  So it doesn't necessarily make sense to pump up something whose purpose is to be weak.

[Uriel_Ventris]

I was attempting to determine if there's actually a baseline within the rules to say that the two abilities are so similar that they can be considered interchangeable in regards to feats and items.

This idea directly contradicts your opening statement:

Are there any people who treat them as the same thing to allow for things like Natural Spell and Wilding Clasps to function in the same way for a Shapeshifting Druid?

I was trying to see if someone could point out a rule I might have been missing. But I guess it's all about bending things to make up for the inherent balances that are introduced into the system.

I have everything I need from here on.

No reason for anyone else to interject what they think/feel should be the case in terms of allowing wild shape-specific items/feats apply to the shapeshift variant.

Dude, if your group likes to play fluffy bunny characters and it's not doing anything to hurt the game (i.e. kill fun), why care? It also seems like you're purposely trying to be a dick and ruin everyone else's fun for the sake of the holy RAW. The holy RAW makes even less sense than fluffy bunny characters. This is a game where people farm wishes, turn cattle to salt, and break ladders into 10ft poles for an economy.

I am trying to run a fairly serious campaign, so excuse me for *gasp* being a stickler for the rules.

The group in question is 4 people. And they have enough to worry about, to not care that I am, as you put it, ruining their fun.

[archangel.arcanis]

I have been talking to one of my gaming group, and he thinks the shapeshifting variant should be treated as Wild Shape for all interactions between feats and items.

I told him repeatedly that they are not the same thing. And he just complains that I shouldn't be such a stickler for the rules.

Are there any people who treat them as the same thing to allow for things like Natural Spell and Wilding Clasps to function in the same way for a Shapeshifting Druid?

Thanks in advance!

I was attempting to determine if there's actually a baseline within the rules to say that the two abilities are so similar that they can be considered interchangeable in regards to feats and items.

This idea directly contradicts your opening statement:

Are there any people who treat them as the same thing to allow for things like Natural Spell and Wilding Clasps to function in the same way for a Shapeshifting Druid?

I was trying to see if someone could point out a rule I might have been missing. But I guess it's all about bending things to make up for the inherent balances that are introduced into the system.

I have everything I need from here on.

No reason for anyone else to interject what they think/feel should be the case in terms of allowing wild shape-specific items/feats apply to the shapeshift variant.

Dude, if your group likes to play fluffy bunny characters and it's not doing anything to hurt the game (i.e. kill fun), why care? It also seems like you're purposely trying to be a dick and ruin everyone else's fun for the sake of the holy RAW. The holy RAW makes even less sense than fluffy bunny characters. This is a game where people farm wishes, turn cattle to salt, and break ladders into 10ft poles for an economy.

I am trying to run a fairly serious campaign, so excuse me for *gasp* being a stickler for the rules.

The group in question is 4 people. And they have enough to worry about, to not care that I am, as you put it, ruining their fun.

Sorry but your first post asked for opinions, not rules like your later post claims you asked for. So please don't get testy when people give opinions.

On the matter of running a serious game, however. It seems like your group doesn't want to play a serious game, based off of what you have said, so why don't you try a different tact or maybe a different system that will allow them to more easily have their fluffy bunnies. Remember the whole job of a DM is to bring the game to life and make sure everyone is having fun, including them self. So as a general bit of unsolicited advice; relax and let the players guide the game, they will head the way that seems the most fun to them. The rules have flaws, so take them all with a grain of salt and a liberal dose of common sense.

Just so you know Uriel i'm not trying to be harsh on you, but just save you and your group some frustration since there seems to be a bit of conflict of styles there. Hope your game goes well and you take my words with the kind intent they were written with.

[veekie]

Considering the similarities between the two, I'd let any feats/features that don't specifically reference Wild Shape uses per day work with Shapeshift, since Shapeshift is clearly a replacement class feature, and works more or less in the same way.

Reading it strict essentially penalises the player further for picking a weaker variant. I'm not sure about your lot, but doing that tends to encourage deployment of TO in the game out of frustration.