Knockback Charger (The Home Run King)

[fun_at_funerals]

Am presently trying to construct a fighter-type build for a friend who, for reasons I don't understand, refuses to learn Tome of Battle. According to him, he wanted a build that was fun, had character, and was simple to use without it being simplistic. I was entertaining the idea of a Knockback based build and came up with the following:

Kalashtar Fighter 2/Stoneblessed 3/Lion Totem Barbarian/Bard 1/Warchanter 3/ Frenzied Barbarian 10
ECL 1 (4: 1 Base, 1 Fighter, 2 Flaws) Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise
ECL 2 (1) Improved Bullrush
ECL 3 (1) Knockback
ECL 6 (1) Power Attack
ECL 9 (1) Leap Attack
ECL 12 (1) Path of Shadows
ECL 15 (1) Dancing with the Shadows
ECL 18 (1) Open

By the way, we're set in Eberron, some Dragon material is allowed pending approval first.

The idea is this: Use Dancing in the Shadows for two round to gain both a bonus to our AC equal to our BAB and at the same time double our BAB (thanks to the attack penalty we took with Improved Combat Expertise) while suffering no penalty to either stat. After this, we use a Leaping Power Attack. Thanks to the Warchanter's Inspire Recklessness class ability, we gain the benefit of Heedless Charge, taking the penalty to AC instead. This will allow us to use the sum of our AC+2xBAB to fuel Power Attack, and thanks to all our PA enhancers (including a two-handed Valorous weapon), we get a penalty to damage bonus ratio of 1:24 (assuming I did the math right). Now, we don't really have to worry about the enemies retaliating while our defenses are down since we've knocked them clear across the world with the Knockback feat (due to our adding our AC+BABx2 on the opposed Strength check).

Power Attack Calculations: 1 attack penalty :: (4 [Two Handed Supreme Power Attack]) x 3 [Combat Brute:Momentum Swing] + 3 [Leap Attack] = 1 :: 26

Question: Do we add Power Attack's damage bonus as a bonus to the opposed Strength Check for Knockback? Or do we add the penalty we took?

I could really use some help improving the present build. What final feat should I get? Any other way of boosting power attack? I was considering using Martial trying to get Martial Stance: Giant's Stance in there somehow, but I can't really figure out how to squeeze that in and still meet the demands of the build.

I also have a question regarding the Stoneblessed prestige class from RoS and qualifying for Knockback. Strictly speaking, Knockback requires that we have a size of at least Large but makes an exemption for Goliaths that qualify due to their Powerful Build racial quality. Due to Stoneblessed, we count as a Goliath. Do we then, because of the prestige class, qualify for Knockback?

If this is not a viable means of qualifying for the feat, I'll end up having to adapt the class. The third level of Stoneblessed grants us the Toughness feat for free (as a result of you emulating the resilience of Goliaths). Do you think that exchanging that feat for actually acquiring the Powerful Build racial quality of Goliaths is a trade of commensurate value?

Also, I've been considering building a similar Power Attacking Knockbacker character following a different theme. I've always loved the idea of the Harlequinn's Dance of Death from Dawn of War and was wondering if something similar could be made in D&D terms. I was trying to figure out what I could do with the Dervish from Complete Warrior but couldn't really come up with anything. Could use some help in this project as well.

[Prime32]

You could take a look at Rampaging Bull Rush free bullrushes while raging... I think), and the Island of Blades stance (make an AoO whenever an opponent moves through your threatened space) combined with a reach weapon to make more attacks against enemies after you bullrush them.

Aren't there templates which grant Powerful Build? Those would be easier to swallow than 3 levels of Stoneblessed. Note though, that even without Powerful Build, Stoneblessed still qualifies you for the Goliath barbarian racial substitution levels which increase your size to Large while raging.

[Agita]

If this is not a viable means of qualifying for the feat, I'll end up having to adapt the class. The third level of Stoneblessed grants us the Toughness feat for free (as a result of you emulating the resilience of Goliaths). Do you think that exchanging that feat for actually acquiring the Powerful Build racial quality of Goliaths is a trade of commensurate value?

Toughness for Powerful Build? In a word, no. Toughness is worthless outside of meeting prereqs. Powerful Build is really nice. You do the math.

[Prime32]

If this is not a viable means of qualifying for the feat, I'll end up having to adapt the class. The third level of Stoneblessed grants us the Toughness feat for free (as a result of you emulating the resilience of Goliaths). Do you think that exchanging that feat for actually acquiring the Powerful Build racial quality of Goliaths is a trade of commensurate value?

Toughness for Powerful Build? In a word, no. Toughness is worthless outside of meeting prereqs. Powerful Build is really nice. You do the math.

It shouldn't be too hard to convince your DM to make that Improved Toughness though. (Seriously, why couldn't they give you Mountain Movement? )

[InnaBinder]

and the Island of Blades stance

I think this is invalid because it's

for a friend who, for reasons I don't understand, refuses to learn Tome of Battle.

Do we then, because of the prestige class, qualify for Knockback?

If you used Stoneblessed for Goliath, then RAW, yes you should qualify for Knockback.  As always, Ask the DM.

[Rebel7284]

You can always buy the bracers in the magic item compendium that give you powerful build

[fun_at_funerals]

You could take a look at Rampaging Bull Rush free bullrushes while raging... I think), and the Island of Blades stance (make an AoO whenever an opponent moves through your threatened space) combined with a reach weapon to make more attacks against enemies after you bullrush them.

Doesn't Island of Blades make you and your allies flank adjacent foes?

@InnaBinder

Actually, I think if I just cherry pick stuff from ToB or keep it to a manageable minimum for him, it should be ok. I was actually thinking of getting Giant's Stance (to qualify and use Knockback while in the stance) or Leaping Dragon Stance (for Leap Attack) but couldn't figure out a way to fit it into the build. Relating to Knockback. The text actually says "Goliaths qualify by virtue of their Powerful Build racial trait." I'm still not certain of how to read this and how the Stoneblessed prestige class interact with this. It says that I am a Goliath for feats and prestige class that have racial requirements, but I'm not sure that the text can strictly be considered a racial requirement.

Aren't there templates which grant Powerful Build? Those would be easier to swallow than 3 levels of Stoneblessed. Note though, that even without Powerful Build, Stoneblessed still qualifies you for the Goliath barbarian racial substitution levels which increase your size to Large while raging.

Templates. Doh! Just went through Surreal's List of Stuff. Half Giants are +1 LA. Could easily buy that back. Plus, it's Natural Psionic racial trait mixes well with that of the Kalashtar. Seriously considering taking a level of SoulKnife for a Mindblade or a PsiWarrior for the feats.

About Racial Substitution levels, Frenzy is a completely different form of Rage, right? It wouldn't interact in anyway with Mountain Rage. If that's the case, even if we could use it to qualify for Knockback, it would kinda suck that we can only use it once a day due to our single Barbarian dip. Looks like Half-Giant's the only way to go.

Toughness for Powerful Build? In a word, no. Toughness is worthless outside of meeting prereqs. Powerful Build is really nice. You do the math.

Stupid me. Wishful thinking. Hahaha

You can always buy the bracers in the magic item compendium that give you powerful build

Nice. What's the name though?

[Rebel7284]

Strongarm Bracers.  They MAY only give you the weapon wielding part of powerful build, but with those AND stoneblessed, you can certainly make an argument to your DM that it's close enough to work.

[fun_at_funerals]

Strongarm Bracers.  They MAY only give you the weapon wielding part of powerful build, but with those AND stoneblessed, you can certainly make an argument to your DM that it's close enough to work.

The text does state quite explicitly that it only allows you to wield weapons 1 size category greater than your default. Worth a try I suppose.

Oh, and stupid me. The previous build completely neglected the feat space for the prestige class prereqs. This is the updated build:

Half-Giant Kalashtar Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter +4/ Frenzied Barbarian 10/
ECL 1 (4: 1 Base, 1 Fighter, 2 Flaws) Improved Sunder, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, Open
ECL 2 (1) Improved Bullrush
ECL 3 (2) Knockback, Combat Expertise
ECL 4 (1) Improved Combat Expertise
ECL 6 (1) Power Attack
ECL 7 (1) Shock Trooper
ECL 9 (2) Cleave, Combat Brute
ECL 12 (1) Path of Shadows
ECL 15 (1) Dancing with the Shadows
ECL 18 (1) Leap Attack

This build definitely works out the way it was intended to.

+1 LA kinda hurts, but it's ok I guess. Still have to discuss with the DM is buy backs are possible. Also, the hit to BAB due to Psychic Warrior kinda hurts but is, nevertheless, necessary. If buy backs are possible, what should I fill out the last level with?

Do you guys see any room for improvement?

Still an unanswered question: When using knockback, do I add the total bonus damage of power attack or just the penalty I took because of it as a bonus to the opposed Str check for the bullrush?

[Agita]

I see a teensy weensy problem here: Assuming we're thinking about the same Half-Giant, Half-Giant is a race, not a template.
Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre (both from a Dragon mag) accomplish a similar task, though, as they actually make your size Large, with all that entails.

[Hasmadad]

[PhaedrusXY]

Take the Mountain Rage goliath barbarian substitution level. You become large when you rage. That solves your problem, I think.

[snakeman830]

I reccommend you re-read the Dancing with Shadows feat.  There are a couple of things wrong with your idea.

1. It gives you a bonus on your attack roll equal to the penalty taken.  It does NOT increase your BAB.
2. You can only benefit from 1 of the options at a time.  No getting the massive bonus and ignoring the penalty at the same time.

[SwordDisciple]

I see a teensy weensy problem here: Assuming we're thinking about the same Half-Giant, Half-Giant is a race, not a template.
Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre (both from a Dragon mag) accomplish a similar task, though, as they actually make your size Large, with all that entails.

Half-Ogre is a savage species race too

[Negative Zero]

I see a teensy weensy problem here: Assuming we're thinking about the same Half-Giant, Half-Giant is a race, not a template.
Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre (both from a Dragon mag) accomplish a similar task, though, as they actually make your size Large, with all that entails.

Half-Ogre is a savage species race too

Yes, but Savage Species (and Races of Destiny, I believe) have Half-Ogre as a race, not a template.

Incidentally, a Half-Ogre Half-Ogre (template applied to the race) is really superior to an Ogre.

[Agita]

scape.

Fixed that for you. Dungeonomicon is a 3rd-party sourcebook.

I see a teensy weensy problem here: Assuming we're thinking about the same Half-Giant, Half-Giant is a race, not a template.
Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre (both from a Dragon mag) accomplish a similar task, though, as they actually make your size Large, with all that entails.

Half-Ogre is a savage species race too

Yeah. However, the template version from Dragon is much better for what he wants to do (though it is, yes, Dragon, so... yeah).

[Prime32]

Doesn't Island of Blades make you and your allies flank adjacent foes?

What is it then? Wall of blades?

Templates. Doh! Just went through Surreal's List of Stuff. Half Giants are +1 LA. Could easily buy that back. Plus, it's Natural Psionic racial trait mixes well with that of the Kalashtar. Seriously considering taking a level of SoulKnife for a Mindblade or a PsiWarrior for the feats.

Half-giant is not a template.

About Racial Substitution levels, Frenzy is a completely different form of Rage, right? It wouldn't interact in anyway with Mountain Rage. If that's the case, even if we could use it to qualify for Knockback, it would kinda suck that we can only use it once a day due to our single Barbarian dip. Looks like Half-Giant's the only way to go.

You're using Whirling Frenzy? You didn't mention that. Anyway, take the Extra Rage feat. Problem solved.

[Ithamar]

Still an unanswered question: When using knockback, do I add the total bonus damage of power attack or just the penalty I took because of it as a bonus to the opposed Str check for the bullrush?

For Knockback, if you are using a 2 handed weapon, you apply double the amount you power attack as a bonus to your bull rush attempt.  The feat makes no mention of anything greater than x2, even if you get more damage out of power attacking (via Leap Attack or whatnot).  Perhaps your DM would allow you to do that as a house rule though.

I'd advise you to also check with your DM about just how far you can move your foe when using Knockback.  I've had the discussion before (and asked both here and 339) about this fact and was essentially told in both places to ask your DM.  Normally with bull rushing your opponent only moves more than 5' if you move with them.  Knockback specifically states you do not move with your foe.  If you only get to move your foe 5', the feat isn't really worth it most of the time.  So clarify how strict your DM will be with that.

What is it then? Wall of blades?

Thicket of Blades is the stance that lets you take AoO's.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Yes, but Savage Species (and Races of Destiny, I believe) have Half-Ogre as a race, not a template.

Incidentally, a Half-Ogre Half-Ogre (template applied to the race) is really superior to an Ogre.

Only because the ECL formula is messed up. 

[KellKheraptis]

Kalashtar qualify as humans.  Take Jotenbrud at first level, and save 3 levels of craptastic PrC
EDIT : Also, going off the TWF idea of the Dervish, check out the Revenant Blade.  An RB/Frenzied Berserker build is absolutely terrifying in melee.