Author Topic: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes  (Read 3980 times)

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bhu

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3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« on: November 30, 2009, 03:03:57 AM »
If you were rebuilding 3.5 how would you do PrC's?

Pteryx

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 06:40:04 AM »
I feel that the need to plan carefully around qualification for interesting PrCs (due to their power or otherwise) is a massive contributor to the way D&D 3.x's rules are so front-and-center to the point of demanding mastery and/or putting people off.  Putting some either/ors into PrC qualifications would be a great start in making them feel a little more organic.  -- Pteryx

Runestar

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 11:07:00 AM »
Ease off on the qualifications, but also tone down their power level so they don't completely obsolete the base class after lv6.  :p

For instance, I think spellcasting prcs can take a cue from XPH and grant additional features, possibly at the expense of full spellcaster progression.
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RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 12:00:08 PM »
PrCs are kind of cool, but I don't know that they're all that necessary.  I think you could sum up a lot of them with feats and be done with it.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

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Steve: You underestimate my power!
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[/spoiler]

DaveoftheRave

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 11:37:36 PM »
PrCs have 2 main uses:

Making multiclassing viable and offering alternative class features.

There should be harsh prereqs on the former but it should be much better than a normal class and the latter should have easy prereqs but be no more powerful than a base class.

RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 09:36:50 AM »
I guess personally, I'd like multiclassing to just work, which would get rid of the need for multiclassing PrCs.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

DaveoftheRave

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 11:47:50 AM »
I guess personally, I'd like multiclassing to just work, which would get rid of the need for multiclassing PrCs.

Do you have any suggestions that would make it work?

I can't think of any blanket rules that wouldn't help some combinations more than others.

Wizard/Cleric, Wizard/Sorcerer and others could be viable with the right PrC.

RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 12:19:45 PM »
That's a good question, although to truely delve into it, we might want another thread.

My short answer would be to get rid of classes all together, but many find that unpalatable, and it doesn't seem like much of a 3.5 "fix", so it's probably off the table for purposes of this discussion.

As a general rule, I'd say follow this general rubric, and most of your work is done for you: Your vertical advancement comes only from level, and your horizontal advancement comes from your class levels and feats.  What I mean by vertical advancement is all the scaling that makes you better at an option you already have (more plusses on your sword attacks, more d6s on your fireballs and sneak attacks, etc) and horizontal advancement is when you gain a new option.  So, a fighter learning to trip is horizontal advancement, and when he learns how to trip everyone next to him at once or gets a +4 bonus on trip attempts, that's vertical advancement.

Now, to make this work, figure that a level 10 fighter will have the power of a 10th level character and a whole slew of fighter options.  A 10th level wizard would have the power of a 10th level character and a whole slew of wizard options (spells, most likely).  Now, a Fighter 5/Wizard 5 also has the power of a 10th level character, but he has half as many fighter options as Fighter 10 and half as many wizard options as Wizard 10, but he still has as many total options as a 10th level character.  So while he loses flexibility in both of his fields, he also gains flexibility by having two fields.


I've also attached a little graphic to illustrate my point:
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Runestar

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 10:51:39 PM »
I suppose spellcasting could be reworked to function somewhat like initiator lv (+1/2 other class lvs), so a caster loses less from multiclassing in non-spellcasting classes. For instance, a cleric10/wiz10 would cast as a 15th lv cleric and 15th lv wizard. Maybe not quite comparable to cleric3/wiz3/MT10/XX, but better than simply letting them stagnate?

Can't think of an alternative for bab languishing in the case of fighter/wiz multiclass though.
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RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 02:35:38 PM »
My only problem with the Initiator Level mechanic, is you still fail to be level-appropriate.  Sure, it's not as bad as just straight up multiclassing, but it's pretty much the exact same as the Mystic Theruge, and we all know why that class sucks.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Chemus

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 01:54:51 AM »
If there were PrC's in the game, I'd like to see them as similar to the 'Kits' from the 2e game. Paladin, Fighter, and Ranger (the 2e Warrior classes) could each take the Samurai kit. It would benefit them each in a similar fashion; bonus weapon specialization, and a kiai ability 1/day (18/00 str for one minute). The penalty to balance this is that the samurai must have a lord who they obey completely. A failed samurai (ronin) takes a 1/2 XP penalty.

The kits are mostly balanced against the class they come from; essentially ACF's.
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veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 04:00:34 AM »
My only problem with the Initiator Level mechanic, is you still fail to be level-appropriate.  Sure, it's not as bad as just straight up multiclassing, but it's pretty much the exact same as the Mystic Theruge, and we all know why that class sucks.
Exactly, people have to recognise that, even with a full 'caster level' the character who multiclasses is already weaker in his speciality than a single classed one. A Fighter doesn't have access to higher Greater Specialisation, casters lose spell levels. The loss in the horizontal advancement within the class is made up for in kind by the gain in horizontal advancement as a character, picking up new options from outside.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 03:49:29 PM »
As at least one person said, I think this is becoming a discussion of multi-classing specifically which may require a different thread.

Also the IL mechanic may not be perfect, but I think it's a pretty good start. I like the simple fractional systems as a base. There is a "Magic Rating" variant in Unearthed Arcana that I'm fond of for keeping casters from suffering so hard for multi-classing.
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JaronK

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2009, 11:36:19 PM »
One major change I'd like is that no PrC should grant spellcasting increases at level 1.  Some may disagree with me on this, but I'd like it if the best Wizards were actually Wizards.   Of course, the PrCs need to give other level appropriate abilities to compensate.  A simple fix is to remove casting bonuses from any PrC at level 1, but if they already lost casting at any other level, they gain casting at the first such level.  For example, the Mindbender would now give casting at 2, 3, 5, 7, and 9.

Overall I like PrCs, it's just that many of them need some work.

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 12:16:27 AM »
A possible exception to the first level spell lost could be classes like master specialist which could compensate for its powers by giving penalties to the caster level of other schools of magic like unseen seer.

JaronK

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 03:32:22 AM »
Perhaps.  Point being, you should lose something from your actual casting ability.

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veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 04:02:50 AM »
Either that, or if the original caster classes did not draw so damned much of their power from their spellcasting, there wouldn't be a need for that sorta thing.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Havok4

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 05:42:42 PM »
Maybe do something like integrate the master specialist benefits into the normal wizard build with something special for generalists? Then there are good reasons to stay a wizard for as long as possible.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 06:36:53 PM »
Either that, or if the original caster classes did not draw so damned much of their power from their spellcasting, there wouldn't be a need for that sorta thing.

+1

Wizards SUCK. The class is terrible. It's 1 save away from being a commoner (I know they have other shit, I don't care. Same for Sorcerors). The spells are the only thing and everything that makes them work. With that in mind, they lost next to nothing for PrCing out.

I like prestige classes, but it's hard to imagine a lot of PrCs I like for a reason other than the fact that they're more powerful than their appropriate base classes. There ARE a few (I like Dragon Disciples, Warshapers, others that focus on one aspect of a base class instead of all of them) but they're more rare.

In my opinion Prestige Classes should be niche and that should be their entire purpose. The base classes should hit the basic largest options available to a character, but prestige classes should make niche options viable (without making the character useless).

For example, the Paladin has a bunch of options (I know they suck, I'm using this as an example), but the Cavalier expands on one of those options. A druid can do a bunch of shit, but a Warshaper is all about one thing. A Fighter can specialize in any form of combat he likes, but a Reaping Mauler emphasizes one. Rangers want to be useful but they (apparently) also want to be Drizzt, Tempests own the Drizzt side of Rangers (Also, I hate Drizzt for what he's done to Rangers. Why is TWF a Ranger thing? Answer: It's not).

Base classes should be a sort of jack-of-all trades for a certain mechanic of D&D/role in the party, prestige classes should seek to master one of those trades.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:40:25 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Havok4

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 49: Prestige Classes
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 07:21:12 PM »
A good example of a class that has good abilities all the way to level 19-20 would be the beguiler, factotum, binder, and the dread necromancer.