Of Mice and Level Adjustments

[OblivionSmurf83]

[Negative Zero]

I have no idea about Divine Ranks, but in my opinion, Gestalt is worth a minimum of 2 LA. Think about it like this. That Sorcerer only gets one 9th level spell, and only at level 20th. But he could have a d12 HD, full BAB, and full maneuver progression as a Warblade. Or he could go Druid up one side and be a sorcerer while also being a bear all day. That's a pretty good deal, I've got to say.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

 The way I play Gestalt relative to normal levels is that gestalt requires you to pay XP for all of your class levels.  Thus, you need to earn twice as much XP each time you level.  This will put you behind in levels, which earns more XP, so the characters end up relatively stable compared to the rest of the party.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

Negative, you raise a good point about the Warblade, and for Gish characters, they'd be quite happy with it, but the minimum +2 is interesting. If we increased that to +3, a Wizard/Warblade might still be a happy combination, but would anyone wanting to play a 'pure' caster ever take it? I can't see many Wizard/Cleric gestalts being excited by being able to cast, say, Greater Shadow Conjuration and Greater Restoration while their pure Wizard buddies are playing with Time Stop. Presumably, a higher LA than +2 would screw over pure casters in the same way that Mystic Theurge does.

Mad_Linguist, interesting thought. I'd need to crunch the numbers to figure it out exactly, do you know roughly how far behind the normal levelling curve that keeps Gestalt players?

[Vinom]

I like TML's idea, it'll keep them farther and farther behind as the levels grow higher...

[DavidWL]

This is something that really interests me.

Thoughts:

1) Gestalt LA should scale as you increase in levels
At low levels, 1 LA is a lot.  At higher levels, it is less.
example (for a gish): 
Gestalt 2/2 ~= Normal 3
Gestalt 8/8 ~= Normal 10
Gestalt 14/14 ~= Normal 17

Finding out what the breakpoints would be is a very interesting conversation

2) Needing to have to buy off extra LA sucks
example:
- from levels 1 - 6 it is +1 LA
- from levels 7 - 13 it is +2 LA
- from levels 14 - 20 it is +3 LA

However, when you go from level 6 (Gestalt 5/5), to level 7 (Gestalt 5/5).  That sucks.  You have to spend twice as long without getting extra EXP.

Best,
David

[DavidWL]

The way I play Gestalt relative to normal levels is that gestalt requires you to pay XP for all of your class levels.  Thus, you need to earn twice as much XP each time you level.  This will put you behind in levels, which earns more XP, so the characters end up relatively stable compared to the rest of the party.

This is very interesting.


This rapidly stabilizes at ~ 2 LA.  (Because "Exp rewards double as CR doubles".  The fact that for a fixed CR it doesn't quite double relative to the party is balanced by the fact that they need more than twice as much EXP to level).

Roughly speaking, this method works out to be:
Level 1 -3 = +1 LA
Level 4+ = +2 LA

The good

For my point #2 "Needing to have to buy off extra LA sucks", this is great, because the buy off is much more gradual.

The bad

For my point #1 "Gestalt LA should scale as you increase in levels" - I think that +2 is too stiff at levels 4 and 5, and not stiff enough at high levels (17+?)

Best,
David

[DavidWL]

Background

I think the best way to look at balance is to compare specific builds throughout their range of levels.  I would assert that
1)  Gestalt costs casters the greatest
2)  Gestalt benefits non casters the most
3)  Gestalt should be best balanced for Gish.

1 and 2 are pretty obvious, please let me know if you agree with 3.

If so:

At level 2:
Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1 ~= Gestalt Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1[spoiler]
Normal:  
BAB = 0 (or 1)
HP = 10 + 2 * CON   
Saves = 0/2/2
CL = 1
Special = Skills

Gestalt
BAB = 1   
HP = 10 + 1 * CON   
Saves = 2/0/2
CL = 1
Special = 1 bonus feat

[/spoiler]Conclusion:  Roughly equal - perhaps very slightly in favor of the Gestalt

At level 5:
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2 ~= Gestalt Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4[spoiler]
Normal:  
BAB = 3
HP = 22 + 5 * CON   
Saves = 1/3/3
CL = 4
Special = 1 bonus feat, skills, +2 CHA

Gestalt
BAB = 4
HP = 26 + 4 * CON   
Saves = 3/1/3
CL = 4
Special = 3 bonus feat

[/spoiler]Conclusion:  Roughly equal

At level 8:
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Eldritch Knight 3 ~= Gestalt Fighter 6/Sorcerer 6[spoiler]
Normal:  
BAB = 6
HP = 32 + 8 * CON
Saves = 4/4/4
CL = 6
Special = 2 bonus feat, skills, +2 CHA

Gestalt
BAB = 6
HP = 38 + 6 * CON   
Saves = 5/2/5
CL = 6
Special = 4 bonus feat

[/spoiler]Conclusion:  Roughly equal

At level 13
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Eldritch Knight 8 ~= Gestalt Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10[spoiler]
Normal:  
BAB = 11
HP = 50 + 13 * CON   
Saves = 8/6/6
CL = 11
Special = 2 bonus feat, skills, +2 CHA

Gestalt
BAB = 10
HP = 60 + 10 * CON   
Saves = 7/3/7
CL = 10
Special = 6 bonus feat

[/spoiler]Conclusion:  Roughly equal, but ...

Now it starts to get more complicated as the fact that the gestalt get's lots more special abilities has to be balanced by lower level adjustment.  

If we only did +2 LA, the Gestalt would be equal in almost every way and! have more class abilities.  With +3 LA the gestalt is basically paying +1 LA for 3 bonus feats.  Additionally, the gestalt build isn't that optimal, since a "real" core gestalt would have also dipped in Paladin 2 and/or Barbarian 2 and/or Ranger 2.

At level 18
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 5/Eldritch Knight 10 ~= Gestalt Fighter 15/Sorcerer 15[spoiler]
Normal:  
BAB = 14
HP = 65 + 18 * CON   
Saves = 9/7/8
CL = 16
Special = 2 bonus feat, skills, +2 CHA

Gestalt
BAB = 15
HP = 87 + 15 * CON
Saves = 9/5/9
CL = 15
Special = 8 bonus feat

[/spoiler]I think this is roughly equal ... ~4 bonus feats for a caster level.  Perhaps a little strong, but acceptable.

At level 20
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 7/Eldritch Knight 10 ~= Gestalt Fighter 17/Sorcerer 17[spoiler]
Normal:  
BAB = 15 (16 with bab stacking)
HP = 70 + 18 * CON   
Saves = 10/8/9
CL = 18
Special = 2 bonus feat, skills, +2 CHA

Gestalt
BAB = 17
HP = 98 + 17 * CON
Saves = 10/5/10
CL = 17
Special = 9 bonus feat

[/spoiler]Conclusion - this is in favor of the Gestalt.   Better BAB, slightly better HP, slightly worse saves, -1 CL, but far better class abilities (~5! bonus feats).  I think +3 LA is not enough.  bumping it to +4.

Conclusion
example:
- from levels 1 - 4 it is +1 LA
- level 5 = +1.5 LA
- from levels 6 - 11 it is +2 LA
- level 12 is +2.5 LA
- from levels 13 - 17 it is +3 LA
- level 18 is + 3.5 LA
- from levels 19 - ... it is +4 LA

If we round down we make the Gestalt stronger relative to a gish, if we round up, we make it weaker relative to a gish.  I'd argue to favor strength (balancing closer to a pure caster).  This also works well, to simplify ...

Easy simplification - Gestalt is +1 LA per 6 levels.

At low levels a gish often trades 1 CL for BAB / proficiences / feats.  (1 CL ~ 1 LA)
At mid levels, there is usually a trade of a 2nd CL for a dual progression class (2 CL ~ 2 LA)
At high levels, there is less of a trade off, but usually the Gestalt starts getting more cool class features (2+ 6 levels of class features per 1 CL)

Do you agree with my method?  (Balancing against a gish vs. against a caster or non-caster)?
Do you agree with my judgments?  (break points for extra LA?)

Thanks,
David

[Brainpiercing]

What about Tier gestalting, as was suggested in the Tier thread(s)?

Tier 1s and 2s can't gestalt, Tier 3s can gestalt with 5s and 6s, 4s with 4-6. So you could do a Dread Necro/X or Beguiler/X gestalt, but not a Sorc/X or Wiz/X.
IMHO that should work out quite well to compensate for the lower power spell lists of the list casters, without breaking Sorcs/Wizards/Clerics with full BAB and tons of bonus feats or Initiator progressions.

Another attractive option IMHO is gestalting with a critter so that LA/RHD go on one side of the Gestalt.

[DavidWL]

What about Tier gestalting, as was suggested in the Tier thread(s)?

Tier 1s and 2s can't gestalt, Tier 3s can gestalt with 5s and 6s, 4s with 4-6. So you could do a Dread Necro/X or Beguiler/X gestalt, but not a Sorc/X or Wiz/X.
IMHO that should work out quite well to compensate for the lower power spell lists of the list casters, without breaking Sorcs/Wizards/Clerics with full BAB and tons of bonus feats or Initiator progressions.

I like it, but we also have to talk about more questionable things.  How does prestige classing effect a tier?  What about mixed base classes?

Example:
What tier is a paladin 2/Sorcerer 3/Eldritch Knight 4?
- I'd say tier 3, but it isn't obvious.
What tier is a wildshaping ranger 10/planar shepherd 10?
- I'd say tier 1
What about a commoner 5/Chameleon 10?
- I'd say tier 3, but you could argue it ...

Anyway, my point is that type of method still needs work before it is defined sufficiently ...

Best,
David

[JaronK]

It was Tier 3s and 4s can gestalt with NPC classes, Tier 5s and 6s can gestalt with other T5-6s, IIRC.

And you just do it by level.  With mixed base classes, you just check at each level, so a Paladin//Sorcerer can't exist, but you could have a (Paladin 2//Fighter 2)/Sorcerer 2 as a 4th level character, for example, with two levels of Paladin//Fighter and two levels of Sorcerer.  I never did a PrC tier system (I found it too complex, others worked on one but it was a bit different), but the simple method would be just to not gestalt PrCs.

The gestalting by level thing works out pretty well. 

JaronK

[Brainpiercing]

The Tier system for PrCs was only a guidance, and added a modifier to each PrC. However, it did not really advocate changing base tier, this would only happen in extreme cases. Like a Rainbow Warsnake easily moves up a Tier, but normally this does not happen. Chameleon and some other classes which basically do not even build on a base class, but rather provide their own mechanism for everything, were not even included.

Example:
What tier is a paladin 2/Sorcerer 3/Eldritch Knight 4?
- I'd say tier 3, but it isn't obvious.

I concur, there.

What tier is a wildshaping ranger 10/planar shepherd 10?
- I'd say tier 1

Unless the Planar Shepher provides its own casting, then I don't think it's Tier 1. But 1 or 2 doesn't really matter.

What about a commoner 5/Chameleon 10?
- I'd say tier 3, but you could argue it ...

Without a way of making buffs last longer a Chameleon isn't even that strong. This particular thing has potential for Tier 3, but could easily slip to 4, depending on feat choices, IMHO.

Anyway, my point is that type of method still needs work before it is defined sufficiently ...

Best,
David

Most certainly, and JaronK's suggestion of mostly gestalting with NPC classes is certainly viable. If anything, it can turn Tier 3 casters into viable gishes or more competent skill monkeys. The 5s and 6s gestalting might at least become numerically competitive, even if their mechanics are still weak. I'd say this has to be worked out for each build, and especially for prestige class choices. The Tier system for PrCs can give some hints, there, but no firm guidelines.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Unless the Planar Shepher provides its own casting, then I don't think it's Tier 1. But 1 or 2 doesn't really matter.

lol it advances fully. Its the paragon of tier 1.

Anyways. I sorta already hashed this out here

David did very well there too. I came up with:

2) The pure-combatant vs hybrid vs full caster arguments seems like an excuse to keep casters the ROFL PWNZORZ that they are in non-gestalt. I like balance (no really!) so even within a specific tier empowering the gishes and pure combatants while not really helping the casters seems fair to me. If anything, they are the danger. I even question if I'd allow the full casters to go the full 20 class level non-gestalt manner. They will still be stronger than the gish or pure-combatant anyways even when hampering them down to a max for 15//15. This leads to the class levels.

3) I'd say that a slightly underpowered mapping would be this: 5=4//4, 10=8//8, 15=12//12, 20=16//16,
Regular   Gestalt
1      1//1
2      2//2
3      3//2
4      4//3
5      4//4
6      5//5
7      6//5
8      7//6
9      7//7
10      8//8
11      9//8
12      10//9
13      10//10
14      11//11
15      12//12
*16      13//13*
17      14//13
18      15//14
19      15//15
20      16//16

*Here is the sweet spot before regular old wizards start throwing around 9th level spells and everything normally goes to Hell.

If you like full casters but ban fast casters (which I allow) but still want to keep 9th level spells then make that last level 17//16 instead.

[Brainpiercing]

Unless the Planar Shepher provides its own casting, then I don't think it's Tier 1. But 1 or 2 doesn't really matter.

lol it advances fully. Its the paragon of tier 1.

Ranger casting? That was the point. Mystic Ranger, maybe.