Author Topic: The chicken or the egg?  (Read 4834 times)

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wotmaniac

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The chicken or the egg?
« on: November 23, 2009, 01:43:23 AM »
Okay, so, I realize that this may be a little silly, and that much of this is probably already somewhere in the "ask a simple question" threads; but I wanted a place where we could consolidate various logical conundrums that exist within various situations and their relation to RAW.

Questions such as:

Q1
Lets say I create an item that generates an AMF, and I put said item in a Bag of Holding (or other such item) -- what happens?  Obviously, when you go to put it in the bag, the bag is treated as a normal bag.  However, once it is in the bag and the bag is closed, does the AMF item still radiate in the normal area, or does the bag revert to normal, placing the AMF-item in to the extra-dimensional space?

Similarly, what happens when you cast AMF (or maybe even a MDJ) from within a magically-created extra-dimensional space?
_______________________________

Like I said, I realize that this may be a little silly; but I also thought that it may provide for some light-hearted fun.  Feel free to just go nuts.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:54:22 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Levithix

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2009, 02:55:42 AM »
Simple enough
If you try to put an always on amf item in, it would go into the mundane bag instead of the extradimintional space because the item suppresses the bag's magic.
If you cast an antimagic field from inside the bag it has no effect on the bag because the bag is on another plane.

Now, what happens if you cut a bag of holding while it is in an antimagic field is another matter.
 

wotmaniac

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2009, 03:29:09 AM »
Simple enough
If you try to put an always on amf item in, it would go into the mundane bag instead of the extradimintional space because the item suppresses the bag's magic.
If you cast an antimagic field from inside the bag it has no effect on the bag because the bag is on another plane.

Now, what happens if you cut a bag of holding while it is in an antimagic field is another matter.
 
Okay then -- but about casting it from within a Magnificent Mansion?  If nothing immediately, then what about when you open the door?

And as to the bag scenario: say that the item has a limited duration -- what happens when the duration ends?  Does the item somehow cross over in to the extra-dimensional space?
Or, what if you are in the bag when you cast AMF, and then someone opens the bag?  the emanation would extend outside of the bag -- so what happens?

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Levithix

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2009, 11:12:17 PM »
My ruling would be that the amf doesn't cross between the planes even if there is a portal.

As for putting an amf item in a bag of holding then turning off the amf. That is one of the better ways to hide something. It's simpler to just dispell the bag though. The only ways to get it back out are to turn off the magic in the bag (dispel or amf) or to cut open the bag because whenever you reach into the bag, you'll reach into the extrqdiminrional space.

wotmaniac

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 12:51:55 AM »
Thanks, Levithix.

I know that I had a whole pile of things that I was gonna post here (at least, I did at the time that I conceived this thread) -- alas, they are completely escaping me at the moment.
So, anybody feel free to bring all of your silly circular-logic rules bits.   :D

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Levithix

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 06:51:08 AM »
That's a shame, I liked your first question.

wotmaniac

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 07:12:28 AM »
yeah, I know.  I'm sure that they will come to me eventually -- I'll post them as they do.

until then, ....



well, okay, I guess I could continue the sillyness of the first one:
okay, I've got the AMF stone in a lead box, and then climb in to the (random extra-dimensional space).  I then open the box and take the AMF stone out of the box -- at which point I stick my arm out of the (extra-dimensional space).
Okay, you could argue that I am mostly in the bag, so it stays in there (though, that would be questionable).  So, with only my arm sticking out (maybe my head), I then drop the AMF stone so that it lands outside of the (extra-dimensional space).

chew on that one.   :p
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 07:19:36 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Levithix

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 07:46:37 AM »
Well, you'd be locked inside the extra-dimensional space. That part is easy ... not so sure about your arm though ... that might be left outside.

wotmaniac

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 08:38:54 AM »
oops:



[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Endarire

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 09:26:25 PM »
I say an antimagic field prevents a Bag of Holding from working.  The bag is an opening to extradimensional space, and in the AMF, there's no portal, meaning an effectively closed bag.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Levithix

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 10:10:40 PM »
Yea, that part is easy. the pert we're thinking on now is what if something is halfway in the open bag when it is turned off and what about an anti-magic field inside the bag

wotmaniac

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 05:27:18 AM »
Endarire makes a good point -- it is just a portal, regardless of which side of it you happen to be on.  So, I guess that if you popped an AMF while in the bag, you would still be shutting-off the portal, rendering the bag (or whatever) useless.

Now, in the case of being partially in/out of the bag, if you just wanted to be silly about it, then you say that you would be, in affect, stuck (I actually chuckle at the image, as I have had groups that would go with something like this).  However, for practicality, and based on analogous precedence in RAW, I'd probably say that you get shunted to one side of it or the other.   :shrug

Thoughts?


In the meantime:
Q2
Divination (as in the school of magic)?  Especially high-level ones that let you tell the future.
Once you have obtained information about the future, (depending on how you act on it) doesn't that pretty much render such info basically obsolete?

Discuss.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

veekie

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2009, 07:22:54 PM »
I personally work with divination and other time related fuckery as revealing the future as it will be, at the point of casting, accuracy of prediction does not account for actions that change because of timestream manipulation, including acting upon observations. The future will be unchanged unless someone acts differently from the predicted outcome.

Unless of course, your divination asks someone instead(e.g some god), in which case the answer reflects the limitations of the being queried.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 07:25:16 PM by veekie »
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[spoiler]
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Levithix

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2009, 07:50:08 PM »
Hmm, what happens if you are in a closed portable hole and somebody casts disjunction on it?

Bozwevial

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2009, 07:53:33 PM »
Presumably, you're trapped in the extradimensional space unless you can somehow escape via plane-shifting of some kind. If not, you're probably screwed, since the air runs out fast.

veekie

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2009, 08:22:19 PM »
Presumably, you're trapped in the extradimensional space unless you can somehow escape via plane-shifting of some kind. If not, you're probably screwed, since the air runs out fast.

Presumably Disjunction also nukes the extradimensional space created, which could simply dump everything out then and there, or flush it all into the astral(I use the former because, well, MDJ is bad enough...)
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

wotmaniac

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 08:26:21 PM »
Presumably, you're trapped in the extradimensional space unless you can somehow escape via plane-shifting of some kind. If not, you're probably screwed, since the air runs out fast.

Presumably Disjunction also nukes the extradimensional space created, which could simply dump everything out then and there, or flush it all into the astral(I use the former because, well, MDJ is bad enough...)
depends on how much you want to punish the players (I've done the "flush" -- and ZOMFG, does that piss them off  :evillaugh)
now days, I give it a 50/50 shot.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Bozwevial

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2009, 09:00:34 PM »
Presumably, you're trapped in the extradimensional space unless you can somehow escape via plane-shifting of some kind. If not, you're probably screwed, since the air runs out fast.

Presumably Disjunction also nukes the extradimensional space created, which could simply dump everything out then and there, or flush it all into the astral(I use the former because, well, MDJ is bad enough...)

I guess it depends on whether the portable hole creates an extradimensional space or simply links to an existing one.

awaken DM golem

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 10:12:48 PM »
I like Endarire's answer, but with the following caveat:

If the AMF is created inside the Bag ...
(a) ... the center of it is no longer within the magical effect, so it pops out of the bag
(b) ... there's this weird AMF inside the Bag, and anything that gets pushed into it, then pops out of the bag

idk

(a) has an additional problem ... after the AMF has popped out of the bag
what happens ??

JaronK

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Re: The chicken or the egg?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 10:13:40 PM »
IIRC when a bag shuts down everything inside is shunted out, so in the given situation everything in the bag would just be shunted outside the bag.

And by the way, eggs showed up LONG before chickens.

JaronK