Can this be abused: Xorvintaal

[telehax]

I'm sure many of you, upon reading the entry for Xorvintaal Dragon in the MM5, have been wanting to actually try playing it. Sadly, there are no official rules.
In spite of this, I'd like to try running such a game sometime in the far future. Emphasis: far future. But it can't hurt to start pondering now.

Thus: I'll be posting my attempt at rules here, and I'd like you people to see how you could abuse these rules so that any future players can't.

Something simple first: Character Creation

Main Character:
- Base race must be a true dragon.
-- Cannot be a dragonwrought kobold.
-- Due to the loss of spellcasting (see next point), sovereign archetypes are not allowed.

- Must have the Xorvintaal Template
-- Change the text about not being able to cast spells to lose all casting based on race. That is, you may take casting classes to gain casting.
-- Gem dragons lose their manifesting ability from race, essentia dragons lose their meldshaping and free essentia pool etcetc.

- CR 16

- All Character Classes count as associated.

- Templates allowed
-- You may take a type change, however the type change must have been gained post-xorvintaal template. Thus, inherited templates are not allowed, but dracolich is.

- Final creature must have an intelligence score of above 6.
-- Null is not above six.

- Roll 4d6 drop 1 for stats. No rerolls.

- Starting Gold: 800,000.
-- Note that hoarding gold is (will be) a game mechanic.

- Edit: Mindsight has a maximum range of 200ft

[Runestar]

Are you talking about playing a xorvintaal dragon as a PC, or running one as a DM?

If it is the former, the 1st problem would be getting to young adult, which pretty much requires you to be at epic levels.

If it is the latter, for most part, I think the loss of spellcasting means a huge sacrifice in power. You are essentially trading strength for ease of gameplay. No spells means no arcane strike, buffs, utility magic or breath-metamagic spells. But it also means not having to torture yourself over how best to optimize their spellcasting, or recalculating everything after the dragon is hit by a dispel magic.

Granted, as a PC, your spellcasting will suck relative to your ECL anyways, so I have no qualms trading it out. As an npc though...

One concern I do have is if their loss of sr is absolute. For instance, if I tack on a feat or template which grants sr (after they have lost theirs via the application of the xorvintaal template), does the dragon gain sr, or is any attempt at gaining sr automatically overwritten? Seems like a cheap way of eschewing what is meant to be a balancing factor...

[telehax]

I'm sorry to be rude but Did you even read the opening post?

The intention is to run Xorvintaal the game as a DM while the players all play Xorvintaal Dragons. The point would be to create the rules of Xorvintaal which would facilitate this.

And SR isn't that broken anyway. The normal ruling would be that gaining SR after the Xorvintaal template would let you have SR. Since SR isn't all that broken, I have no reason to rule otherwise.

[Runestar]

I was not entirely sure if you meant playing xorvintaal dragon PCs, or a game where the dragons are involved in a game of xorvintaal and the PCs are part of this game (perhaps as exarchs?). Going by your response, I now know beyond reasonable doubt that you meant the former. Apologies for this.

Again, this brings me to my next point. How are your players going to interact with their campaign world? Are they still going to adventure as a party, or manipulate events more indirectly (ie: via their minions)? Are your various players going to be pitted against one another, winner takes all?

I would say that the main problem here lies not so much in any mechanical imbalance brought about by the template (not that I can find any), but moreso the challenges of keeping the theme of the campaign true to the flavour of xorvintaal.

[SKRP]

You should ban mindsight. It's really freakin' spider sense on steroids with this template.

[telehax]

Players will be pitted against each other, I'll probably not make it such that they can't leave their lairs or anything, but of course, i'll need to find a way to make doing so incredibly risky..
Mindsight would be broken only in that you could locate all other dragons... which is in fact broken i guess, just not spider sense. Probably have to fix that...

Edited Opening Post.

[Tenebrous Apostate]

Mindshight might be broken all by itself but in a Xorvitaal game it does not matter. The Dragons playing the great game are forbidden to engage each other personaly/physicaly. And knowing where the other Dragon is does not reveal WHAT it might be doing or why. You can allways have Exarchs to do the Divinations if you wish to stay some moves ahead.Speaking of Exarchs exept the Divinations they can do a hole lot other things like engaging an enemy Dragon and there are 2 words to Describe the ruination of any plot there might be to the story : Shivering touch.

[telehax]

Myth: Shivering Touch is a great tactic versus dragons
Fact: Shivering Touch is a great tactic versus dragons taken unmodified from the book.

[Tenebrous Apostate]

  that may be so but I'm not aware of any SR as good as that of a Dragon and raising their Dex is rather costly. Are you sure the players will be ready for this or will the first to figure it out be the winner of the game?

[Kal Zakath]

I would suggest that you limit the use of the ghostly dragon, or even dracolich templates. If someone where to make a ghostly dragon and say that the reason for their existence is to continue to play the great game. Also, what qualifies as a "true dragon". The planar dragons, gem dragons and others all have age categories and i think would be considered true dragons (though i think this is DM interpretation), however many of them have no spellcasting, instead having a list of other abilities that are generally more powerful than the dragons from the monster manual, and that they would not lose.

[Tenebrous Apostate]

Remember that the big guy in MM5 is a Fang Dragon wich is extraplanar. Ghostly Dragons cannot play because they have no treasure of their own usually. And Dracoliches are rather imbalanced as it i..

[Kal Zakath]

Remember that the big guy in MM5 is a Fang Dragon wich is extraplanar. Ghostly Dragons cannot play because they have no treasure of their own usually. And Dracoliches are rather imbalanced as it i..

a dragon PC would have a hoard though. As WBL. i would think that technically counts as a hoard, if a small one.

[telehax]

1. Okay, firstly, the goal of the game is not (will not be) to kill the opposing dragons, although that will be a possible defeat condition. Though I'll probably make sure this is the hardest by making the level of the exarchs too low for that....
2. I'd like to think I have intelligent players, so people who don't defend against shivering touch: Their fault.
3. Removed the mindsight rule. If any dragon leaves the lair I think I'd want the risk to be increased by enemies knowing where to attack.
4. As much as I love psionics, i think i'll rule that Gem dragons lose that too... as well as Essentia Dragons... ye-ah.

[telehax]

The Hoard Mechanic: (To provide the confusing nature of Xorvintaal I'll probably have a different mechanic called the Horde mechanic.. heh.)

- "Treasure" is a category of object that includes any object that can be sold for 100% of its cost normally. This includes coins, blocks of precious metals, gems, or other trade goods such as cows, if that's what you want.
-- Normally means that feats and PrCs which allow the sale of other items for 100% do not let an item be considered treasure.
-- Items created directly from a magic spell can not be considered treasure. Eg: Wall of Iron, Flesh to Salt.
-- For streamlining purposes, all treasure is considered to weigh 1lb for every 10gp worth.

- A "Hoard" is a designated area which can be attuned to any of the player-dragons.
-- Hordes come in sizes, named after the hebrew alphabet. The smallest is Yod, followed by Teth, Heth, Zayin, Waw, He, Daleth, Gimel, Beth, and the largest, Aleph.
--- The younger dragons, with no respect for tradition, also refer to these Class N Hordes, with Class 1 being the smallest and Class 10 being the largest.
-- The purpose of a hoard is to generate income, at the start of every round manned horde earns 5% interest on the value of all treasure within it, to a maximum based on hoard size. This limit is size-numberx100.
--- A manned hoard is a hoard with its CR in exarchs affiliated with the same dragon sharing its space.
-- Hoards larger than He(, not including He itself,) can also attract exarchs, the horde level determines the maximum level available, which is size-number minus five.
-- The dragon's home lair counts as a hoard of size Daleth (6), except for the limit on maximum exarch level, which is increased by 1/3rd the dragon's CR.
--- Only the dragon can man its lair-hoard.
-- To seize control of a hoard, its space must contain exarchs of only one player-dragon during the start of round. You do not lose control unless another dragon seizes control of it, thus you may abandon a hoard and still retain control of it, etc.

(Yes, the hebrew names are just to confuse people)

[Kal Zakath]

i assume you use the term "round" in this case as a round of the great game, rather than 6 seconds.

with the hoard mechanic, i assume this is to separate normal wealth by level and the treasure bet on the great game? Can this treasure be converted into normal items and hence drop hoard value/size accordingly? i ask for clarification sake. if true, make sure that any treasure in a hoard must have been treasure for the entire round in order to count for interest.