Author Topic: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats  (Read 2127 times)

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bhu

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3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« on: November 19, 2009, 09:40:21 AM »
If you were rebuilding 3.5, how many Feats should PC's have and when would they get them?

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 10:09:23 AM »
It depends on how you handle class features.  Assuming each class grants decent features, I'd say every odd level is good enough.  It gives out feats often enough that players can customize their PC fairly easiliy.  Also, if feats scale and become better with PC levels, they shouldn't need a lot of them to have a good selection of tricks.

I've been working on something on the side that doesn't use classes and relies on feats being granted every level, but that's because there are literally no class features.  In a class-based game, I think giving out a feat every level might be too much.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 02:28:11 PM »
Feats are your level of customization as well as powerful tools. Every class in 3.5 starves for feats, so clearly 3.5 does not give enough feats.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 09:21:14 PM »
One every other level, but they need to do more relative to a character. A feat choice should be a defining part of your character; Improved Disarm might mean, for instance, that you're a kickass swordfighter widely known for your signature disarming move.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2009, 09:59:03 PM »
This way goes off the rubric that "Every cool thing you can do must be a feat" also if you give more feats like this then is forever sticks the feats at a small level of power.
I hate the pathfinder more feats bit.
If feats did what they were supposed to do it wouldn't be even needed. People will always want more feats but there no limit on greed. Though we could make it NOT be stupid by having things like twf actually scale into the other two weapon fighting feats Improved, greater, etc... for the price of one feat. The problem is NOT that "There aren't enough feats' the problem is "Feats themselves are not economically appropriate investments." and the need to be for the system to work.

Moreover
 Mostly thats combat feats anyway there are some things that can be given as a feat that are actually a 1 time investment. Metamagic feats for example do we want every wizard to have 10+ metamagic feats? That's going to increase the power gap even more.
No more feats won't solve the problem ... as evidenced in pathfinder.
Maybe if the skills didn't suck things would be better as well.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2009, 10:52:08 PM »
This way goes off the rubric that "Every cool thing you can do must be a feat" also if you give more feats like this then is forever sticks the feats at a small level of power.
I hate the pathfinder more feats bit.
If feats did what they were supposed to do it wouldn't be even needed. People will always want more feats but there no limit on greed. Though we could make it NOT be stupid by having things like twf actually scale into the other two weapon fighting feats Improved, greater, etc... for the price of one feat. The problem is NOT that "There aren't enough feats' the problem is "Feats themselves are not economically appropriate investments." and the need to be for the system to work.

Moreover
 Mostly thats combat feats anyway there are some things that can be given as a feat that are actually a 1 time investment. Metamagic feats for example do we want every wizard to have 10+ metamagic feats? That's going to increase the power gap even more.
No more feats won't solve the problem ... as evidenced in pathfinder.
Maybe if the skills didn't suck things would be better as well.

You make some valid points, but I still want more feats. Probably not why you think though.

My argument for more feats never sprang from a desire for power. It came from never being able to have the ones I wanted because unless I was a fighter I didn't have enough. I knew nothing of character optimization at this time (Other than common sense), I just saw a lot of cool feats out there and wanted them for various innocent reasons but couldn't have them. It's not greed, although I did experience a fair share of that when I played a fighter and still didn't have all the feats I wanted.

I don't agree with any comparison you make to pathfinder. I had conceived the notion of feats every other level before pathfinder, 4e, or saga ever even came out. It's just a superior progression. You don't get that many more feats, but you do gain some wiggle room (feats every 3rd level just is NOT enough) and perhaps just as importantly the feats take on a simpler more logical progression.

Teaching a new player "feats every third" is harder than "feats every other level". There's just more identifiable structure if you stick to every other level
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2009, 12:47:59 AM »
I wouldn't mind if Combat feats and non-Combat feats were totally separated. I want the combat feats to be bad-assed as hell, and for you not to get many of them (unless you're a fighter). But I understand if you want some just because they're cool. So why not have two separate pools of them, and two different sets of slots to buy them with?

 Of course... that's starting to sound kind of like 2nd edition. :P
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2009, 02:01:56 AM »
I wouldn't mind if Combat feats and non-Combat feats were totally separated. I want the combat feats to be bad-assed as hell, and for you not to get many of them (unless you're a fighter). But I understand if you want some just because they're cool. So why not have two separate pools of them, and two different sets of slots to buy them with?

 Of course... that's starting to sound kind of like 2nd edition. :P
Nah I think one pool of feats are good enough really, the thing is to make interesting enough feats for everyone that they have to waver on what feat to take each time they take a feat.

For example
(Twf is my favorte example cause everone see the progression easily)
You get Twf, Itwf, something that lessens two weapon fighting penalties... like the tempest does, then, Gtwf
all keyed to base attack bonus
All for one feat. Thats great for any melee-ist as well as good for the fighter if all things are taken equal.

Then you have rage feats... For example... uhm...
Burining Rage: Pre-req Barbarian X (in some capacity tied to barbarian level)
 Your rage explodes forth as a blistering flame
 When you enter a rage all creatures withing 20feet must make a reflex save 10 + con + 1/2 char level or take 1d6 fire damage per level Save for 1/2. They must also make a fortitude save or be knocked prone from force.
Finally  for the duration of your rage anyone struck by one of your melee attacks catches fire as desribed in the dmg

Now thats an example of the other type of feat. There'll be combat feats that give new abilities and "Class ability feats" that enhance existing options.

and maybe a few more. That makes things about equal with taking metamagic.
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dman11235

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 11:54:49 PM »
By default I'd say every odd level or every level, somewhere in that range, depending on power and scope of them, but ultimately, it depends on the skills and class features.  Of course, if you do scaling feats, I'd say closer to what it is now, or maybe just at every 3 or 4 levels.  Again, depending on power and scope.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2009, 12:04:13 PM »
As I see it, feats represent three distinct ideas: 

The first idea is that of lineage.  The various Heritage feats and the wonky Bloodline levels currently fill this function.  I'd be interested in seeing a more inclusive set of lineage feats, available to all characters at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels.

The second idea is one of general skill.  I'll lump any feat that doesn't pertain directly to efficacy in combat - including spellcasting in combat - in this category. This includes item creation.  These general feats should be available to all characters at the current progression level of 1st and every 3rd level.  If the character can't cast the requisite spell, he's unlikely to take the feat.

The third idea is the opposite of the previous one, combat.  Metamagic feats and all feats geared toward weapon use fall into this category.  I'd like to see these combat feats scale to some degree, available at even levels, and based on BAB (a la the Tomes) and caster level.  BAB isn't + 3?  No Weapon Specialization for you.  Caster level is 5?  Congratulations, you qualify for Empower Spell.  Etc.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 04:37:43 PM »
Feats are meant to be significant accomplishments.  Just look at definition 2b.  A Fighter- a support class- get feats because that's his only class feature, allowing him to customize his fighting style.  Everyone else has things predefined.

I also whole-heartedly support scaling feats.  Each feat should be something major about your character and useful!  3.5's designers treated feats as such minor bonuses, you could get one every (other) level and notice little difference.

What if you needed only the feat Quicken Spell to actually quicken a spell instead of many class features and auxillary feats to let you quicken spells spontaneously and free, like it should be?  I support having limits on the number of free daily uses, but now, metamagic feats are placeholders and people use metamagic rods for their metamagic.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll part 41: Feats
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2009, 05:30:25 PM »
I like the lineage/non-combat/combat breakdown, each on separate progressions. Then even in a group of min-max munchkins everyone can not just focus on combat.

Lineage feats could also be a good way to handle monsters as PC races. "A minotaur PC must be at least level 6, has the following stats and does not gain their lineage feats at levels 1 or 5." It would take a decent chunk of new development to make lineages for the non-monstrous races but it would eliminate any need for LA, while adding another facet to characters.