Author Topic: help me break core with wizard; should be easy  (Read 4855 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2009, 12:33:32 AM »
But I do make really optimized characters but only use a fraction of their power (I am happy I'm not the only one :D) Except when something Epic happens, like the time we fought agianst something like a CR 50 at level 12... It took me 1 round to kill it. it was a kind of devastation beetle...
I'm not doubting you in the least;  I could do it too...but how did you manage it?

Ever see a 300 ton bug that didn't sink like a stone in mud?  And ever see a bug period that could survive with it's airholes/exoskeleton covered?  That's just off the top of my head.  If it were slightly higher level, it'd be even easier.  Flying 300 ton bug until the reversed gravity wears off!  Or better yet...orbital beetles!
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2009, 01:09:11 AM »
Technically...all beetles can fly.

It's part of their classification, IIRC.

I'm not sure reverse gravity would work, though I'm sure D&D has probably made other rather ridiculous errors of that sort, so it wouldn't be a surprise if they did so here, too.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2009, 01:31:06 AM »
Technically...all beetles can fly.

It's part of their classification, IIRC.

I'm not sure reverse gravity would work, though I'm sure D&D has probably made other rather ridiculous errors of that sort, so it wouldn't be a surprise if they did so here, too.

-headdesks- The rock to mud trick should still work though with a rod/means of reducing quicken's level/high enough level.  I can't remember if they can see invisibility or not, but if not, you can always flit around and snipe em to death too.  Hell a warlock could do that REALLY early, and he'll roll a 20 eventually (he's got all day).
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Akalsaris

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2009, 01:45:53 AM »
For the record, Samb ended up talking it out with his DM, and showed him the thread on the OoTS forum.  The end result was that the psionic rogue was still out of play, but Samb was permitted to play SRD psionic characters so he got to work on a psychic warrior.  Apparently the whole thing started largely because the DM was feeling overwhelmed trying to track multiple abilities, effects and power points and whatnot from the various non-core classes, including the party swordsage.

Frankly, I think the DM was over-reacting, but I've been that kind of DM before, so I understand the stress he's under.  When you don't really understand what a character is capable of and don't know how to challenge it, DMing can get overwhelming sometimes, and that's not much fun.  I've banned crap that I shouldn't have, and I've also allowed stuff that I should have known better than allowing.  Thankfully, my PCs were all mature enough to build a bridge and get over it, as they say. 

As a PC, I've had it happen to me as well.  My whisper gnome got house-ruled to normal gnome, my swift-hunter got Spell Compendium spells banned, etc.  But I never considered ruining the game as some sort of "fair payback." 

Kell's approach seriously repels me, and that's putting it lightly.  It's not the DM's job to provide entertainment - people DM because they want to have fun, just like you.  If he changes the rules of the game mid-way and makes it core-only, then the responsible thing to do is state your piece.  If you seriously can't enjoy a core-only game, then I would just walk away, not act passive-aggressive and ruin the game for the DM and the other PCs. 

Honestly, I don't see how it achieves anything in the end.  You walk off in an angry huff, the DM retcons the evening and says "So the mad wizard's planar bomb was merely a bad dream!" and the game goes on, only now you're off looking for another group, and your old group had to put up with a night of angry D&D, which nobody enjoys.

And I don't mean this post as a personal attack, Kell - it's just that I can't understand how you can justify that kind of behavior, especially multiple times.  Char op gets a bad rep from exactly this sort of thing, and it frustrates me sometimes.

KellKheraptis

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2009, 02:09:23 AM »
For the record, Samb ended up talking it out with his DM, and showed him the thread on the OoTS forum.  The end result was that the psionic rogue was still out of play, but Samb was permitted to play SRD psionic characters so he got to work on a psychic warrior.  Apparently the whole thing started largely because the DM was feeling overwhelmed trying to track multiple abilities, effects and power points and whatnot from the various non-core classes, including the party swordsage.

Frankly, I think the DM was over-reacting, but I've been that kind of DM before, so I understand the stress he's under.  When you don't really understand what a character is capable of and don't know how to challenge it, DMing can get overwhelming sometimes, and that's not much fun.  I've banned crap that I shouldn't have, and I've also allowed stuff that I should have known better than allowing.  Thankfully, my PCs were all mature enough to build a bridge and get over it, as they say. 

As a PC, I've had it happen to me as well.  My whisper gnome got house-ruled to normal gnome, my swift-hunter got Spell Compendium spells banned, etc.  But I never considered ruining the game as some sort of "fair payback." 

Kell's approach seriously repels me, and that's putting it lightly.  It's not the DM's job to provide entertainment - people DM because they want to have fun, just like you.  If he changes the rules of the game mid-way and makes it core-only, then the responsible thing to do is state your piece.  If you seriously can't enjoy a core-only game, then I would just walk away, not act passive-aggressive and ruin the game for the DM and the other PCs. 

Honestly, I don't see how it achieves anything in the end.  You walk off in an angry huff, the DM retcons the evening and says "So the mad wizard's planar bomb was merely a bad dream!" and the game goes on, only now you're off looking for another group, and your old group had to put up with a night of angry D&D, which nobody enjoys.

And I don't mean this post as a personal attack, Kell - it's just that I can't understand how you can justify that kind of behavior, especially multiple times.  Char op gets a bad rep from exactly this sort of thing, and it frustrates me sometimes.

No offense taken, but we will have to agree to disagree.  I am firmly in the camp of eye for an eye, and heavy-handed DM's that don't listen DESERVE to get fucking owned, no mercy, no remorse.  I take the same stance with tyrrany, be it virtual or real, and am no less extreme in dealing with it in real life.  I've been banned from several places for speaking my mind and escorted out of a few, and I don't regret any of it for one damned second.  Any repression is bad repression, and in this case, if they can't spit out a good reason other than "I don't like your character and want to nerfbat him because I don't want to listen," they just painted a big fat target on their NPC world, and if they're dicks about it, it won't get that far, because that's a fine line between having issue with mechanics and having issue with a person.  Probably a bit extreme, I know, but that's always been my nature.

As for the OP, at least the DM had a reason and was willing to talk about why he decided to nerfbat everything (and I won't change that vernacular, as by any other description, it remains what it is and will NOT EVER be candy-coated).  In that case, keep the kid gloves on.  Nothing wrong with holding a pocket nuke so long as you don't parade it around and launch it occasionally.
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Akalsaris

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2009, 02:59:22 AM »
Indeed...we'll just agree to disagree then.  You're a bit more intense about this game than I'll ever be, I think.  I hope you've found a DM that works out well for your style of play, though.


KellKheraptis

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2009, 03:05:18 AM »
Indeed...we'll just agree to disagree then.  You're a bit more intense about this game than I'll ever be, I think.  I hope you've found a DM that works out well for your style of play, though.

The black hat reference isn't just for being CO :P  I'm entirely too idealistic to be anything but an antihero.  And actually, any DM that isn't a deliberate dick works out well.  I only ever condone world shattering in games where the DM asks for it.  Or gestalt...but that's a given in gestalt :P
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Akalsaris

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2009, 03:08:28 AM »
Heh...if I ever play gestalt again, I think I'll go truenamer/warmage, just to see how playable it would be :P

Lycanthromancer

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2009, 03:15:32 AM »
Heh...if I ever play gestalt again, I think I'll go truenamer/warmage, just to see how playable it would be :P
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DerWille

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2009, 08:44:18 AM »
I'll throw my 2 cents in too.

 I agree with Kell, mostly. If a DM is going to randomly ban shit to fulfill his power hungry control fetishes, he deserves it. If he unwilling to talk, compromise, or actually hint at the real problem (All of these abilities are too complicated to keep track of), he is doing a disservice to the people playing in his game and ruining their fun.

D&D is at its heart a cooperative game. That's why I think a pre-game session where DM and players determine what house rules are going to be used, what level of optimization is appropriate, etc. It's not just some, "I say no, because I'm the DM." Everyone needs to be having fun and be on the same page. If there is some issue such as the DM handling too much book keeping, instead of saying, "Core only" could delegating the task to another player help? I know as a DM, I would love if I had one player who did nothing but keep track of how long each effect was in place.

 Randomly changing the rules halfway through the game is being a brat. I remember on an episode Josh said something like, "Games have rules and they need to be followed." Agree to a set of rules before you start playing and stick to them. If some unforseen issue comes up, then have everyone decide how to handle it. I really believe this could handle 80% of the problems people have with this game.


Akalsaris

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Re: help me break core with wizard; should be easy
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2009, 01:05:18 PM »
Heh...if I ever play gestalt again, I think I'll go truenamer/warmage, just to see how playable it would be :P
If it's truenamer-based and doesn't feel like Homer Simpson, then you're doing it wrong.

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