3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 37: Fighters

[bhu]

If you were rebuilding 3.5, how would you do the fighters abilities?

[InnaBinder]

Alternate higher-capping feats (weapon mastery and such) and maneuvers, is my vote.  Even levels get maneuvers, odd levels get feats, for instance.

[RobbyPants]

Ultimately, I don't hugely care, but I voted "other" because my first inclination is to use both feats and class features.  All of my favorite fighter fixes involve filling in their dead levels with useful class features.

Of course, using a feat-based fighter also relies on fixing feats as well.  The Tome feats are definitely something worth looking at.  They scale by BAB, so they continually get better, and it's not just a "bigger numbers" sort of fix.

[dman11235]

I agree with Rob here.  Well, it kinda depends on what feats do, but the Fighter (and all classes) should have unique class features.  Otherwise, they might as well not exist in that fashion.  The form unique class features take is not important, it could be maneuvers, special way of utilizing feats (bonuses in addition to the feat bonus), or a free chupacabra.

[PhaedrusXY]

Like this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6373.msg210338#msg210338



So I guess that would be Feat Based and/or Other. It is definitely feat based, but I put in some much more powerful feats and stuck an inherent limit on how often they could be used.

The Combat Feats in Races of War also go a long way towards helping the fighter out. If you actually make really awesome feats, and give him more of them than anyone else, then he becomes awesome. Of course, it is hard to break away from the precedent set by all the bad feats in official 3.5 (which is almost all of them, in comparison to the Tome combat feats...).

[RobbyPants]

The Combat Feats in Races of War also go a long way towards helping the fighter out. If you actually make really awesome feats, and give him more of them than anyone else, then he becomes awesome. Of course, it is hard to break away from the precedent set by all the bad feats in official 3.5 (which is almost all of them, in comparison to the Tome combat feats...).

Yes.  Those are exactly what I'm talking about.

[veekie]

Well, I'd rather that the fighter gets his own unique set of class features, rather than being based on feats, at least to the extent that uniques are in the majority. It's not a question of whether there are awesome feats or not, but things special to the fighter. Not to mention it's swingy depending on what feats are available.

[Bauglir]

I think they need real class features. Feats are a separate means of character building, to my mind. They're supposed to be modular abilities that can be added to any character, with prerequisites serving to ensure that they can be used in the manner intended and to ensure that they enter gameplay at the level intended. The whole concept of Fighter-only Feats needs to go, I think, actually.

Possible class feature: "Fighters are proficient with all weapons. Yes, all of them. If it has ever been used to kill a person, or might someday conceivably be used to kill a person, a fighter knows how to wield it. Fighters even see weapon possibilities in things that aren't weapons, such as fluffy clouds and cute little duckies. Fighters are scary." Taken virtually verbatim from Munchkin d20, but oh well. Put more rulesy, "Fighters are proficient with all simple, martial, and exotic weapons, and take no penalties for wielding improvised weapons, which deal damage as appropriate for their size according to Table X." Contingent upon weapon fixes and suchlike.

[PhaedrusXY]

Sorry to pick on you Bauglir, but that ability is worthless. A fighter is already going to be proficient in anything he actually wants to use. All the other proficiencies he has are meaningless and do not contribute to his power.

What the fighter needs is things that are comparable in power to the highest level spells in the game, when he reaches the levels where those spells are used. And until you accept that fact, and give him those kinds of things, he will always be underpowered. I definitely think the way to do that is feats, and I think the entirety of Tome of Battle could have just as easily been done as feats instead of inventing new mechanics for all of the maneuvers and stances. It just isn't as sexy, and wouldn't have sold as many books.

[Bauglir]

Was mostly a joke, anyway

The second paragraph, anyway. The first part I think is true. I don't think feats are the way to go. If you want Fighter-only bonus feats, why not give them the equivalent of talent trees that are part of the class?

[PhaedrusXY]

Was mostly a joke, anyway

The second paragraph, anyway. The first part I think is true. I don't think feats are the way to go. If you want Fighter-only bonus feats, why not give them the equivalent of talent trees that are part of the class?

See... what's the difference? I don't see why people like this, but don't like fighter only feats, when they amount to exactly the same thing. Is it just the appeal of new and shiny things? The feat system already exists, and is very easy to beef up. Inventing a totally new and balanced system is less trivial.

[Bauglir]

It's on principle, mostly. I want to see feats as a separate system equally applicable to all characters. What I don't want is to see a bunch of HD, BAB, Save, and Skill Point progressions in a table with a list of bonus feats those classes can pick.

[dman11235]

Yeah, pretty much principle.  If it acts in all ways like a class feature, then why not make it a class feature?

Also, making feats do what would be necessary to make the feat Fighter a well designed class would actually be a good amount more work than just changing the Fighter class.  And no, I do not think ToB could have been done as a series of feats.  Not at all.  Well, unless you like really, really, really clunky mechanics.  For feats to do what maneuvers do you need a new feat classification, the ability to get more feats, the existing feats to do more, and the ToB mechanics fleshed out anyways to govern the new feat classification.  As opposed to just the mechanics and some classes utilizing them.

And I'll say again, if the game is designed around feats defining characters rather than class abilities, then you might as well not have classes.  Just have a generic set-up, and utilize the feats.  Eliminate that redundancy.

[Bloody Initiate]

And I'll say again, if the game is designed around feats defining characters rather than class abilities, then you might as well not have classes.  Just have a generic set-up, and utilize the feats.  Eliminate that redundancy.

I wouldn't say fighter fixes have to influence how everyone else is designed. The reason having tons of feats is cool as a fighter is that you pick whatever ones you like. A talent tree is not the same thing, because it is limited by someone else's preconceived ideas of what a talent entails. A fighter is nothing more than an extremely customizable template. If you just wanted to add the talent trees on TOP of the feats though, that would probably work fine.

I think Phaedrus has the simplest solution, feats need to be waaaay better at higher levels. Also give them things that let them take advantage of every available combat advantage (i.e. every combat feat). Making the feats fighter-exclusive isn't necessary, since you can just make other requirements that everyone but fighter will have a hard time filling.

[RobbyPants]

I guess I take the stance to keep fighter feats by principle too.  It's just the principle of not changing something if it's not inherently broken.

I can see a total revamp of skills because I see too many fundamental problems with the system as a whole.  I just don't see anything wrong with the concept of feats or fighter feats.

[Runestar]

I like the idea of them granting bonus feats, and the feats having an improved effect when taken by a fighter.

For instance, a fighter taking improved critical might receive a bonus crit range of +1 every 4-5 lvs. Or the cap for cleave increases every 3-4 lvs? Maybe they get a small attack bonus when making AoOs from combat reflexes? 

In a way, this might partly resolve the issue of feats not scaling with power, and letting them feel special in the hands of a fighter.

[veekie]

The poll sorta speaks for itself though.

[dman11235]

And I'll say again, if the game is designed around feats defining characters rather than class abilities, then you might as well not have classes.  Just have a generic set-up, and utilize the feats.  Eliminate that redundancy.

I wouldn't say fighter fixes have to influence how everyone else is designed. The reason having tons of feats is cool as a fighter is that you pick whatever ones you like. A talent tree is not the same thing, because it is limited by someone else's preconceived ideas of what a talent entails. A fighter is nothing more than an extremely customizable template. If you just wanted to add the talent trees on TOP of the feats though, that would probably work fine.

I think Phaedrus has the simplest solution, feats need to be waaaay better at higher levels. Also give them things that let them take advantage of every available combat advantage (i.e. every combat feat). Making the feats fighter-exclusive isn't necessary, since you can just make other requirements that everyone but fighter will have a hard time filling.

And feats aren't limited by some other point of view?  The goal with a talent tree based fighter would be to allow any combat method that the fighter should have.  So yes, limited, but that's the point.  It gives direction to the class.  There's supposed to be direction.  Otherwise, say it with me now, there might as well not be classes.

And talent trees aren't really what I'm thinking of adding to the Fighter.  I'm thinking the Fighter should have a bunch of bonus combat-oriented feats, and then a bunch of class features that are more neutral on the combat side of things and make it so that the Fighter can more easily be an all around fighter, rather than a weapon specialist.  So combat maneuver advancement, synergy features that modify feats, that sort of thing.

[Midnight_v]

Like this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6373.msg210338#msg210338



So I guess that would be Feat Based and/or Other. It is definitely feat based, but I put in some much more powerful feats and stuck an inherent limit on how often they could be used.

The Combat Feats in Races of War also go a long way towards helping the fighter out. If you actually make really awesome feats, and give him more of them than anyone else, then he becomes awesome. Of course, it is hard to break away from the precedent set by all the bad feats in official 3.5 (which is almost all of them, in comparison to the Tome combat feats...).

LIke that . . . exactly like that PhaedrusXY that makes people not lost anything with what they expect the fighter to be.

I'm thinking the Fighter should have a bunch of bonus combat-oriented feats, and then a bunch of class features that are more neutral on the combat side of things and make it so that the Fighter can more easily be an all around fighter, rather than a weapon specialist.  So combat maneuver advancement, synergy features that modify feats, that sort of thing.

I'd go with that part a least.
Sounds good.

Also

  1 Make the Fighter Feat Based
2 Make the Fighter manevuver based like the Warblade
3 Give the fighter unique class abilities
4 Other

Bhu! 1 and 2 are not exclusive to 3 like at all. Bothe models 1&2 would probbably include some unique clasa abilities.

[Bloody Initiate]

I like the idea of them granting bonus feats, and the feats having an improved effect when taken by a fighter.

For instance, a fighter taking improved critical might receive a bonus crit range of +1 every 4-5 lvs. Or the cap for cleave increases every 3-4 lvs? Maybe they get a small attack bonus when making AoOs from combat reflexes? 

In a way, this might partly resolve the issue of feats not scaling with power, and letting them feel special in the hands of a fighter.

+1

Precedent = Stunning Fist