Off-topic chatter

[Bozwevial]

So would anyone mind if I got rid of maneuver prereqs for martial adepts? You'd still need to be able to choose the manuever based on your IL and class. This would just get rid of the prereqs to have other maneuvers to choose certain maneuvers. This would make it a LOT easier to generate martial adepts that start out above 1st level... which admittedly is mainly for my benefit... but still...

As someone who'll be entering a ToB class soon, I agree with this.

[Agita]

So would anyone mind if I got rid of maneuver prereqs for martial adepts? You'd still need to be able to choose the manuever based on your IL and class. This would just get rid of the prereqs to have other maneuvers to choose certain maneuvers. This would make it a LOT easier to generate martial adepts that start out above 1st level... which admittedly is mainly for my benefit... but still...

I certainly wouldn't. It would definitely help when I've taken all five levels of Shadowlord (what sixth level?) and go back to Swordsage for the Shadow Jaunt line.

[PhaedrusXY]

Ok, I added it to the House Rules thread in the Homebrew forum.

[VennDygrem]

@Phaedrus: So, out of curiosity, what would the consequences be if I were to do this Ghost Touch thing? I assume you'd throw more ghost-hunting-capable enemies at us, but again, I also assume you wouldn't waste your resources giving every single enemy the Ghost Hunter feat and/or ghost touch equipment. I'm also unsure of just where the line is drawn on the abilities gained by that.

I think Sizing is a given; It basically just saves me from spending another feat on Huge Size, and saves Raoul from having to cast Enlarge Person. Though, it also eats away at my swift actions... Are there items like the belt of battle that just grant swift actions? >_> <_<
If I add this, I'll make sure to have myself stated out for each size category.

[Prime32]

I think Sizing is a given; It basically just saves me from spending another feat on Huge Size, and saves Raoul from having to cast Enlarge Person. Though, it also eats away at my swift actions... Are there items like the belt of battle that just grant swift actions? >_> <_<
If I add this, I'll make sure to have myself stated out for each size category.

Enlarge person/Expansion boosts your ability scores though.

[VennDygrem]

I think Sizing is a given; It basically just saves me from spending another feat on Huge Size, and saves Raoul from having to cast Enlarge Person. Though, it also eats away at my swift actions... Are there items like the belt of battle that just grant swift actions? >_> <_<
If I add this, I'll make sure to have myself stated out for each size category.

Enlarge person/Expansion boosts your ability scores though.

Wouldn't Sizing? It should work the same as growing a larger size, I imagine. Of course, since there is no precedent, it's up to Phaedrus.

@Phaedrus: Another thing. You said we're ignoring certain base costs or armor and weapons, such as material. I just noticed, though, that Magic Clothing is supposed to cost 8000 gp on its own (yeowch!). Should I still ignore its cost in regards to enhancing it?

[PhaedrusXY]

If something is called Magic Clothing, then it isn't a mundane item. Hence, you shouldn't ignore the cost. I meant to ignore the cost of mundane items, not magical ones. I know it isn't exactly clear on some of the Tome armors, but if it gives you something like Fast Healing, a Deflection bonus, or something obviously supernatural, we're going to assume that it's magical.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. We're not ignoring the cost of magic stuff, just mundane. And the cost of giving armor and weapons an enhancement bonus, for the purposes of Wish.


As fun as it sounds... I'm not sure how crazy I want to go with the Sizing/Ghost Touch monk thing...

Although... since you're going to be very limited in your weapon selections, and hence only have one set of abilities on them... maybe we should actually let it be the full, cool version.

What do the rest of you think? Should these abilities only work on whatever "weapon" he happens to be using at the moment (so he could punch a ghost with a comically oversized fist)? Or should we let him turn into the amazing gigantic ghost monk?


Also, is everyone getting close to finished with updating?

[VennDygrem]

Honestly, the abilities partly depend on the situation. Not every environment allows for a Colossal sized creature, for instance. The phasing abilities would be nice for defense, mostly, though I'm not sure how often that's a plausible option. I couldn't pass through a whole planet since you need to be within 5 feet of the surface, but it could allow walking through walls. In fact, everything it allows me to do is replicable by Fighting styles, though frankly at later levels.
Sizing isn't something I can replicate with fighting styles, but eventually I'd just be able to take Huge Size, and Enlarge Person would get me up to Gargantuan. Sizing essentially just saves me a feat, unless of course it's ruled that changing sizes with Sizing doesn't work the same as changing a creature's size. If that's the case, I'd probably want to take the feat anyway. However, I have been hoping to find a way to both use Harmless Form faster and add to its versatility. Sizing also lets me shrink to smaller sizes for utility purposes. But allowing these abilities do break or bend the rules of the traditional game. Perhaps not more than a wizard can, but still.

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. Just want to know the boundaries. You've got final say on everything, and can always call shenanigans on something if I or anyone crosses the line. You could also set up ground rules, set up an official ruling on what benefits one would and would not get, etc.

As for the Magic Clothes, that's what I figured. I can add the abilities I otherwise would have to mundane/less expensive clothes and forget about the +2 deflection bonus to AC and +1 to cha skills (which honestly isn't as nice as the AC boost, which again isn't imperative), or live with lesser enhancements. Not a huge deal either way.

[Kuroimaken]

...I want to see the Amazing Growing Ghost Monk.

[HeadofVecna]

What do the rest of you think? Should these abilities only work on whatever "weapon" he happens to be using at the moment (so he could punch a ghost with a comically oversized fist)? Or should we let him turn into the amazing gigantic ghost monk?

I'm torn on this. I don't mind VennDygrem's character having those abilities. But being able to buy an item of Colossal size + incorporeality for under 15k seems like a very bad thing to me.

Also, is everyone getting close to finished with updating?

Xuuvosic's stats/equipment have been updated, as have half of the minions. I should be able to finish the rest within another 2 days. Do you see any errors amongst the updates so far?

[PhaedrusXY]

What do the rest of you think? Should these abilities only work on whatever "weapon" he happens to be using at the moment (so he could punch a ghost with a comically oversized fist)? Or should we let him turn into the amazing gigantic ghost monk?

I'm torn on this. I don't mind VennDygrem's character having those abilities. But being able to buy an item of Colossal size + incorporeality for under 15k seems like a very bad thing to me.

And a monk level, but yeah, that's the main problem with it from the party's perspective. Remember that aboleth? He has a (Tome) monk level.

Xuuvosic's stats/equipment have been updated, as have half of the minions. I should be able to finish the rest within another 2 days. Do you see any errors amongst the updates so far?

I'll take a peek if I have time later. I do not envy you having to manage all that crap. I think Xuuvosic is probably an even bigger headach than Eddie is.

[VennDygrem]

So for Sizing, how about for now we limit it to growing to a maximum of huge (aka the size I could gain via enlarge person). At level 9, when I could have otherwise taken the Huge Size feat, I can grow to Gargantuan (again, enlarge person size), and then at some point later on, it can be the maximum. I don't know what you want to do for minimum sizes, though.

And a monk level, but yeah, that's the main problem with it from the party's perspective. Remember that aboleth? He has a (Tome) monk level.

What's this about a monk level? Or are you just talking about the Monk's belt?

[PhaedrusXY]

So for Sizing, how about for now we limit it to growing to a maximum of huge (aka the size I could gain via enlarge person). At level 9, when I could have otherwise taken the Huge Size feat, I can grow to Gargantuan (again, enlarge person size), and then at some point later on, it can be the maximum. I don't know what you want to do for minimum sizes, though.

And a monk level, but yeah, that's the main problem with it from the party's perspective. Remember that aboleth? He has a (Tome) monk level.

What's this about a monk level? Or are you just talking about the Monk's belt?

I mean to be able to enchant your "hands" as weapons, you need a monk level. Otherwise, your natural weapons wouldn't qualify as being enchantable, right? I thought the Tome monk specified that they could enchant their "slam" attack...

Edit: Maybe I'm crazy... How are you enchanting your slam directly, exactly?

[VennDygrem]

Oh, ah. I don't think it says anything about enchanting them directly, which I suppose goes counter to what a core monk is ruled to be able to do (I think I read that in an FAQ somewhere). That's why I've got the Necklace of Natural Weapons.

[PhaedrusXY]

Oh, ah. I don't think it says anything about enchanting them directly, which I suppose goes counter to what a core monk is ruled to be able to do (I think I read that in an FAQ somewhere). That's why I've got the Necklace of Natural Weapons.

Yeah, I don't think this will work, unless you take levels in Kensai or something. You're going to have to settle for being able to punch ghosts with your giant, meaty fists.

[VennDygrem]

Well, the slam isn't just punching with fists. That's boxing, not martial arts.

It's essentially the same idea as the core monk, which is how you justify having it affect the whole body.

I honestly don't know how many ghosts you're throwing against us (seems like more outsiders and abberations and such). I might rather settle for hitting 50% of the time (or getting a weapon crystal) instead. Sizing also looks to not be worth it either (as I was looking to use it for more than just increased damage. Growing larger grants increased reach and other benefits, sometimes stat boosts. Shrinking smaller means better stealth).

I find it funny how this stuff would work on a core monk and not a tome monk, due to a few differences in wording.

Guess I'll be a little while longer picking out enhancements for my weapon then. It's ok, you guys'll just have to wait a few levels to see the Amazing Ghost Monk. 

[Bozwevial]

I'm torn on some of the enhancements...does Collision or Force sound like a better option to you guys? I like the idea of being able to ignore DR and incorporeality, but on the off chance we run into something immune to force effects my weapon is useless.

[PhaedrusXY]

Well, the slam isn't just punching with fists. That's boxing, not martial arts.

It's essentially the same idea as the core monk, which is how you justify having it affect the whole body.

I honestly don't know how many ghosts you're throwing against us (seems like more outsiders and abberations and such). I might rather settle for hitting 50% of the time (or getting a weapon crystal) instead. Sizing also looks to not be worth it either (as I was looking to use it for more than just increased damage. Growing larger grants increased reach and other benefits, sometimes stat boosts. Shrinking smaller means better stealth).

I find it funny how this stuff would work on a core monk and not a tome monk, due to a few differences in wording.

Guess I'll be a little while longer picking out enhancements for my weapon then. It's ok, you guys'll just have to wait a few levels to see the Amazing Ghost Monk. 

You can't do this on a core monk, either. Their fists aren't Masterwork. A weapon explicitly has to be Masterwork before it can be enchanted. I've never seen any convincing argument that allows it. The only ways I know are with things like the Kensai PrC.

[VennDygrem]

It's through the same item, the necklace of natural weapons. You'd apply it to the monk's unarmed strike, which is described as being any part of the monks body. It's the same munchkin shit that they use to justify being able to punch through walls with a strand of their hair.

Keep in mind that at first I was only mentioning that this stuff is only possible strictly through certain interpretations of the wording. I wasn't even expecting to be able to do any of those things until you started actually considering allowing them.

Don't read too far into my last post. I'm not really that heavily disappointed.

[VennDygrem]

I'm torn on some of the enhancements...does Collision or Force sound like a better option to you guys? I like the idea of being able to ignore DR and incorporeality, but on the off chance we run into something immune to force effects my weapon is useless.

What incorporeal creatures are immune to force effects? What creatures in general are?