Author Topic: Off-topic chatter  (Read 165015 times)

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VennDygrem

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #360 on: January 24, 2010, 04:20:50 PM »
I usually tend to rely more on my character's abilities more than items, besides a few stat-boosting items and better armor and weapons, the occasional utility items and such. I suppose given his UMD, Cade could always use some wands or other spell trigger items, though those get expensive too, and he's less reliant on spells than his fists. Otherwise I could have simply gone with all True Fiend levels.

One of the actual paragraphs, though, states that the Wish Economy is primarily people with expensive gear trading that gear to other people with expensive gear. So I suppose that means we'll have to Wish for 15k gp items and bulk them up to trade, but we still need to find people with the more expensive stuff that we'd need.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #361 on: January 24, 2010, 05:46:56 PM »
One of the actual paragraphs, though, states that the Wish Economy is primarily people with expensive gear trading that gear to other people with expensive gear. So I suppose that means we'll have to Wish for 15k gp items and bulk them up to trade, but we still need to find people with the more expensive stuff that we'd need.
No, it means that items under 15K are basically FREE, and that you can't trade any number of them for items worth more than that.

It actually wouldn't change the game all that much at all from the way it is now, in fact. Your "cheap" items would all get upgraded to around 15,000 gp items, and you could have as many of those as you want. I don't care. Fill your entire 50' deep portable hole with them. Since all you can use is 8 at a time, and you can't actually buy anything more expensive than those with gold, it won't really matter much.

I know this is a dramatic paradigm shift from standard D&D economics, but it is actually very, very simple. Just forget what you think you know, and read what I'm actually saying. These are the two basic principles of "Wish Economics":

1) Whether you "enter" the Wish economy or not, it still exists as the economic backdrop for this game. So you can never in fact buy any magic item worth more than 15,000 gp in this game using gold.
2) Once you do enter the Wish economy, all items worth 15,000 gp or less are basically free. You still can't buy things worth more than that with gold, though. Or trade for them using cheaper items.

And further:
3) You can trade for items worth more than 15,000 gp, but you can't use gold or "minor" magic items. You'll have to use other magic items worth 15K+, or something else that has intrinsic value like Souls, or some other Planar currencies that we might introduce later.

4) Alternatively, you are basically guaranteed to have an allotment of "level appropriate" items by me, according to the charts that I posted in the rules thread. You as a player can pick the items you want, and we'll decide how to explain where they came from in game as appropriate and how you would like (and that I find palatable). We can say you find them, a benefactor gives them to you, you create them, your "future self" leaves it under a rock for you, etc.


Explanation/Justification for the Wish Economy:
[spoiler]The point with the Wish Economy is, there are a crapton of ways to make all the gold you want for free in D&D already. Since you can turn gold directly into more power via magic items in standard D&D, this in fact breaks the game in half in one of two ways. 1) Either everyone restrains themselves from doing this somehow, which breaks believability, or 2) they don't, and it breaks the game mechanically. The Wish economy didn't invent this. It just invents a way to deal with it, which is by saying "You can't buy really powerful magic items with gold." Gold is basically like monopoly money to powerful beings, under the Wish economy. Yeah, you can use it to play Monopoly, which might be kind of fun and maybe even marginally useful, but you can't go out and trade it for a nuclear weapon.[/spoiler]

I wanted to go with the Wish economy because it`s a new thing to try. I`ve never played on a campaign with that option, y`see. :D
As I said above, I am definitely using the "Wish economy" as the economic system of this game world, just because it is actually far more balanced and less abuseable than the standard D&D economic system (although it does have a few unaddressed issues, which I think I have addressed with house rules). It is just a matter of when you guys want to "enter" it. Right now, you guys are technically still working in the "gold economy". But you still can't choose to go pool your gold and buy something worth more than 15,000 gp, because no one will sell stuff like that for gold.


As I said, this won't actually make a big difference to the power level of the game, I don't think. You guys will already be getting your first items that are above the "gold economy" level in about two character levels, and in fact you may start seeing them being used on NPCs before that.



The main difference it would make is that even the "mooks" that are serving powerful enemies will have decent equipment like "magic" flaming swords and +3 (equivalent) armor, stat boosting items, Boots of Speed, etc; because I won't even bother tracking wealth by level anymore at all for items worth 15,000 or less. And all of your "mooks" can have full sets of "minor" gear, also. Even that wouldn't be that different, though, as even with our current system I'm already basically ignoring items that are at about your level or below on the first WBL table that I posted...

Also, by the time you guys hit 13th level, you should each have 8 or more items worth 15,000 or more (see the chart I made in the Rules thread stickied at the top of the forum), and so whether you go full bore and abuse the "Wish economics" or not (and Wish for a bunch of stuff worth 15,000 or less for "free"), by that point you'll be in the "Wish economic" system by default. You won't be able to buy anything you actually care about with gold.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 06:26:42 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Agita

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #362 on: January 24, 2010, 06:24:01 PM »
They are however all immune to Fear and morale effects (which I would think would include intimidate, at least RAI and arguably RAW since bonuses to saves vs. fear apply to the DC on it).
Actually explicitly stated.

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #363 on: January 24, 2010, 07:21:56 PM »
Ok, a new house rule that might not matter, but might be fun to play around with, if you want. I remember seeing a formula for the "value" of souls in the Tome series somewhere, but I also remember not liking it all that much. So here is how I'm going to do it:

The soul of a creature can be used to craft one magic item worth as much as the most "appropriate" valuable item they should have according to the second table I posted in the stickied rules thread.


So according to that a CR 10 enemy would be "worth" as much as a "15th level item", or 25,000 gp. So you could take that being's soul and craft a magic item worth 25000 gp or less, or you could trade it for a magic item worth something in that ball park. Using that "formula", you guys should be capable of killing things that are worth enough to use/trade them for items above the 15,000 gp "Wish cap".

You can't use multiple souls in one item. You could use one soul to craft multiple lesser items, but you'd be crazy to do so.

I'm also going to say that the barghest's weapon and arrowheads were made of Thinuan metal, which you can use to store souls, if you want to mess around with this.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #364 on: January 24, 2010, 07:27:01 PM »
Regardless, I've rarely, if ever, played in a high level campaign, let alone one where I was encouraged to go nuts with magic items. I have very little experience with the "good gear" above 15k, as it is.

Agita

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #365 on: January 24, 2010, 07:29:23 PM »
IIRC the formula was CR squared times 100, so 10k for a CR 10 creature.

Damn, if I'd known that I'd have made the CdG with the barghest's weapon. :D
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #366 on: January 24, 2010, 07:38:11 PM »
IIRC the formula was CR squared times 100, so 10k for a CR 10 creature.

Damn, if I'd known that I'd have made the CdG with the barghest's weapon. :D
He was technically only CR 7. ;) I think crusader levels are highly undervalued. Two of those is probably worth +3 or 4 CR, heh. I think the greater barghest is probably a bit under CRed anyway, also.

I think they let you combine them though, didn't they? So if you're 20th level, you could go out and massacre 10 CR 10s (which are so weak that you wouldn't even get XP), and use their souls to craft/trade for a 100K item. And if you value them at that and can't combine them, then you can basically never use them to get anything worth a crap.

Regardless, I've rarely, if ever, played in a high level campaign, let alone one where I was encouraged to go nuts with magic items. I have very little experience with the "good gear" above 15k, as it is.
I'd hardly call 8 items worth 15,000 gp or less "going nuts". That's what you're limited to going nuts with at any given time, basically. The system may sound nuts at first, but I think overall it is actually more balanced and a lot less of a headache to keep up with. I don't really have to worry much about WBL, because it is basically impossible for you to get more of it than I'd like, unlike the official system where there are all kinds of loopholes to gain infinite wealth, and therefore infinite power.

Yes... you could actually just "fix" those as they come up, or ask people not to abuse them, but I think it is funner having dragons that can actually sleep on a mountain of gold and not worry about it fucking up your game. :D And the King can have all the thrones of solid adamantine that he wants, etc. This system actually allows for that kind of stuff without the DM being heavy handed to keep PCs from becoming overpowered when they kill the King/dragon.

Anyway, this system always intrigued me from the first time I heard mention of it, and so I'm kind of happy to get to try it out, and maybe even patch up the problems that still exist with it.

And if you'd like help with gear choices, I'm sure I or your party mates can probably help out. ;) Or I can just try to make sure to leave some good shit that your character could get the most use out of in each fight, if you want. Don't expect the monsters not to be using it against you, though. :D
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 07:48:15 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #367 on: January 24, 2010, 07:57:11 PM »
By "going nuts" I meant having access to expensive items, ie: items way over 15k in value.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #368 on: January 25, 2010, 01:17:24 PM »
Frankly, I LOVE the plan B. We should, at the very least, consider RPing the first encounter or so with our paradox selves.

I wanted to go with the Wish economy because it`s a new thing to try. I`ve never played on a campaign with that option, y`see. :D
Well... you can't actually interact directly with your "paradox selves" as you say, as Bad ThingsTM would happen. And in fact, I didn't intend for you to.

The way I imagined it is that you'd literally just think "OK... one of these would be handy right now. I'll just have to remember to come back and leave one here under this rock after we get Time Travel capabilities" and then *POOF*, you look under the rock and it is there.

Yeah, I know this opens up a lot of paradoxical things like "How did I ever bypass X without item Y the first time?". We're going to somewhat handwaive that by saying "Time isn't linear". I will also have to limit the amount of information that you can divine from the future using this somehow... otherwise the game would probably be a bit boring. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #369 on: January 26, 2010, 04:51:00 PM »
So, HoV, did X want Cade to actually physically restrain Raoul? I thought he pretty much said everything they meant to say, and pretty much everything that was reiterated by X. Or was he expecting it to be more aggressive? Cade has calmed down from the battle now and is back to his Monk self, generally more restrained and less aggressive.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #370 on: January 26, 2010, 06:12:00 PM »
Ah, intra-party bickering. Is there anything as sweet?  :P
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


PhaedrusXY

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #371 on: January 26, 2010, 06:22:24 PM »
I was thinking of changing the name of the game. I think "Bastard Children of the Apocalypse" would be fitting. What do you guys think? :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #372 on: January 26, 2010, 06:45:39 PM »
I was thinking of changing the name of the game. I think "Bastard Children of the Apocalypse" would be fitting. What do you guys think? :P

We're missing a desertic wasteland.

Other than that, it's a cool name, considering half the characters are sons or related to succubi.  :D
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


PhaedrusXY

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #373 on: January 26, 2010, 06:48:52 PM »
I was thinking of changing the name of the game. I think "Bastard Children of the Apocalypse" would be fitting. What do you guys think? :P
We're missing a desertic wasteland.
The game's not desolate enough for you? Ok. I can fix that. Now where did I put that 15th level Firemage NPC...

If you're flying in outer space, Line of Sight would let you hit half the planet at once, right?  :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #374 on: January 26, 2010, 06:59:55 PM »
 :lmao
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Agita

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #375 on: January 26, 2010, 07:07:25 PM »
If you're flying in outer space, Line of Sight would let you hit half the planet at once, right?  :P
Mirrors are your friends. :P
Though I suppose you'd also need LoE.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #376 on: January 26, 2010, 07:09:22 PM »
Prediciton: Ris-Janna will eventually die of AIDS. Consuming other people's blood can't be healthy.
Nah. That takes way too long. Adventurers never die of old age, nor diseases that take years to finish you off. Swords to the stomach are a lot faster. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

HeadofVecna

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #377 on: January 27, 2010, 06:44:42 AM »
So, HoV, did X want Cade to actually physically restrain Raoul? I thought he pretty much said everything they meant to say, and pretty much everything that was reiterated by X. Or was he expecting it to be more aggressive? Cade has calmed down from the battle now and is back to his Monk self, generally more restrained and less aggressive.

Physical restraint was what I had in mind. I don't want to do anything IC to lessen Kuroimaken's enjoyment of the game, or to cause interparty conflict to spiral out of control. And I suppose I know OOC that Phaedrus is unlikely to kill all our characters for mentioning the Locnar, Pun-Pun, etcetera. But I don't see how the Chaotic freaking Evil Xuuvosic could be blase about such information being given out. So I thought that restraint by two PC's would be a reasonable middle-ground.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #378 on: January 27, 2010, 10:03:03 AM »
So, HoV, did X want Cade to actually physically restrain Raoul? I thought he pretty much said everything they meant to say, and pretty much everything that was reiterated by X. Or was he expecting it to be more aggressive? Cade has calmed down from the battle now and is back to his Monk self, generally more restrained and less aggressive.

Physical restraint was what I had in mind. I don't want to do anything IC to lessen Kuroimaken's enjoyment of the game, or to cause interparty conflict to spiral out of control. And I suppose I know OOC that Phaedrus is unlikely to kill all our characters for mentioning the Locnar, Pun-Pun, etcetera. But I don't see how the Chaotic freaking Evil Xuuvosic could be blase about such information being given out. So I thought that restraint by two PC's would be a reasonable middle-ground.

I appreciate the thought, HoV. I'm good with separating IC squabbling with OOC feelings, and in this particular case the worst that'd happen would be Raoul suggesting Cade release him. Raoul is Chaotic Neutral, so he figures he doesn't need to take any shit, but he doesn't need to KO people who happen to get him riled up either.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


VennDygrem

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Re: Off-topic chatter
« Reply #379 on: January 27, 2010, 03:07:45 PM »
Cade is also Chaotic Neutral, and I could have sworn X was of some sort of neutrality as well (his evilness dulled by centuries huffing halfling vegetation). Regardless, I thought that physically restraining him was unnecessary to the ends we were hoping to achieve. Cade still believes that physicality is secondary to working things out with words, despite his restrained bloodlust.