Author Topic: Terrorist trials  (Read 13307 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Terrorist trials
« on: November 14, 2009, 04:25:00 PM »
Coming from me, this might sound very odd, but after reading today's Guardian, I actually raised my pint for the USA. There was an extensive article about arranging the terrorist trials in New York rather than in Guantanamo and that made me happy. Regardless of the jury (a really tough spot for them!) and their possible biases, the fact that this leap forward has been taken is a really positive sign. You should throw a few high fives for this!

It is very interesting to see how the trials eventually work out, especially because of the jury. Finding impartial jurors for a case like this won't be easy.
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links

wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 05:34:27 PM »
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

by putting this in civilian courts, 2 bad things happen:
a) the whole thing is gonna turn in to a ridiculous media circus, from beginning to end;
b) this gets relegated to being just another set of murders -- simply a law-enforcement issue

this makes me want to cry.  this also makes me want to vomit all over Eric Holder's desk.  after seeing this, I'm practically speechless.  fuck these sorry pieces of shit -- in their minds, they're soldiers in a war, and so they need to be treated like such.  how dare these sorry fucks be allowed the same privileges of common criminals.  this demonstrates a mindset that I believe to be very dangerous in a lot of ways.

Every day that this administration spends in office, the more embarrassed I become.  I never, in my entire life, ever imagined that I could be as embarrassed of and afraid for my country as I am now.  I can only hope that we can eventually recover from this.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Alastar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1028
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 05:37:36 PM »
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

by putting this in civilian courts, 2 bad things happen:
a) the whole thing is gonna turn in to a ridiculous media circus, from beginning to end;
b) this gets relegated to being just another set of murders -- simply a law-enforcement issue

this makes me want to cry.  this also makes me want to vomit all over Eric Holder's desk.  after seeing this, I'm practically speechless.  fuck these sorry pieces of shit -- in their minds, they're soldiers in a war, and so they need to be treated like such.  how dare these sorry fucks be allowed the same privileges of common criminals.  this demonstrates a mindset that I believe to be very dangerous in a lot of ways.

Every day that this administration spends in office, the more embarrassed I become.  I never, in my entire life, ever imagined that I could be as embarrassed of and afraid for my country as I am now.  I can only hope that we can eventually recover from this.

Your right, human rights should only apply to americans, screw the fucking rest of the world!!!

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 05:49:54 PM »
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

by putting this in civilian courts, 2 bad things happen:
a) the whole thing is gonna turn in to a ridiculous media circus, from beginning to end;
b) this gets relegated to being just another set of murders -- simply a law-enforcement issue

this makes me want to cry.  this also makes me want to vomit all over Eric Holder's desk.  after seeing this, I'm practically speechless.  fuck these sorry pieces of shit -- in their minds, they're soldiers in a war, and so they need to be treated like such.  how dare these sorry fucks be allowed the same privileges of common criminals.  this demonstrates a mindset that I believe to be very dangerous in a lot of ways.

Every day that this administration spends in office, the more embarrassed I become.  I never, in my entire life, ever imagined that I could be as embarrassed of and afraid for my country as I am now.  I can only hope that we can eventually recover from this.

Ah, there's the jackass reply I was hoping for. Seriously, denying people rights in their trials because of the very things you're trying them for is bullshit.

EDIT: Going over your post, though, it does seem like it may be satire. In which case, good show.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

CountArioch

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
  • I <3 termites
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2009, 05:56:34 PM »


EDIT: Going over your post, though, it does seem like it may be satire. In which case, good show.

No, it isn't.  Look at his posting history, he actually is that backwards.
She hasn't come to crush your bones, nor tear your flesh
She has come to steal your sanity with just one glance

Sacrapos - At First Glance, Eluveitie

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2009, 05:59:59 PM »
Indeed, why give human rights to people who have pretty much made non-persons already by the way they have been treated and tortured.
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links

dman11235

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1544
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 06:07:02 PM »
One of my managers was in a bank waiting for the ridiculously slow tellers so he could deposit a check, and he was watching the news about these trials.  The guy behind him said "I wish they'd just shoot these towel-heads and get it over with".  Yeah.  Awesome.  That guy was lucky my manager didn't deck him (manager known for doing things like that...).

@wotmaniac: Just because they are Arabic (and not even all of them are) doesn't mean they are warriors intent on destroying the sanctity of life.  That's what trials are for.  To find out if they are guilty.  And you know what?  It WAS a bunch of murders.  And not even one of the biggest mass murders ever.  Was it a terrible thing that happened?  Heck yeah it was.  Does it warrant throwing away what made us better than them (and by them I mean actual terrorists, not the islam culture in general)?  Heck no.  What you're proposing (and by you I mean all those hate trains saying the current administration is a threat to the country and everything that happens during it is a bad thing) will make us no better or even worse than them.
My sig's Handy Haversack: Need help?  Want to see what I've done?  Want to see what others have done well?  Check it out.

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2009, 06:09:32 PM »
@wotmaniac: Just because they are Arabic (and not even all of them are) doesn't mean they are warriors intent on destroying the sanctity of life.  That's what trials are for.  To find out if they are guilty.  And you know what?  It WAS a bunch of murders.  And not even one of the biggest mass murders ever.  Was it a terrible thing that happened?  Heck yeah it was.  Does it warrant throwing away what made us better than them (and by them I mean actual terrorists, not the islam culture in general)?  Heck no.  What you're proposing (and by you I mean all those hate trains saying the current administration is a threat to the country and everything that happens during it is a bad thing) will make us no better or even worse than them.
+1. They're being tried in order to determine if they see themselves as "soldiers in a war". Also, last I checked, stuff like "human rights" still applies to soldiers - it's called a "war crime" if you ignore them because the guys are soldiers.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2009, 06:36:33 PM »
Every day that this administration spends in office, the more embarrassed I become.  I never, in my entire life, ever imagined that I could be as embarrassed of and afraid for my country as I am now.  I can only hope that we can eventually recover from this.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but I totally sympathize. I mean, hell, we had 8 years of Bush.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

CountArioch

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
  • I <3 termites
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2009, 07:03:38 PM »
Times are better now than they ever were.  I don't buy into the conservative alarmism that the world's going to hell and the only way to stop it is to revert back to a primitive society.
She hasn't come to crush your bones, nor tear your flesh
She has come to steal your sanity with just one glance

Sacrapos - At First Glance, Eluveitie

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2009, 07:29:26 PM »
Times are better now than they ever were.  I don't buy into the conservative alarmism that the world's going to hell and the only way to stop it is to revert back to a primitive society.
The world is going to hell, but you are going to beat other countries to it!

But yes, for example this gesture here, as said, is a positive sign. Let's see how this goes and hope that the process as well as the results are decent.
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links

wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2009, 09:21:35 PM »
 :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

first:
how is a military tribunal (or some-such) a denial of human rights?  I'm not saying to just wall them up without any type of trial.  By their own admission, they set-up attacks on us as part of a war (albeit a religious one) -- they need to be treated accordingly.  That's right -- they have already admitted to not only their guilt, but to their motivations, as well.  I have never advocated not giving these guys trials -- I simply believe that they shouldn't be tried in civilian courts.  
I think the way that the Bush administration hem-hawed over the whole GITMO issue is embarrassing.  I believe that if they were worth capturing, then they were worth being declared POW's -- and then following through with all that that entails.  
It has nothing to do with "being Arab" -- it has everything to do with the fact that they have claimed membership/affiliation with a group that has openly and explicitly declared war on us.

Oh, I forgot -- we only give tribunals to people who attack European countries (or their claimed territories).  Only the U.S. has to keep on the kid-gloves and act all cuddley.

Never mind that the U.S. is no less cuddley than any other country (and more so than most of them) -- it's just more PC to put-up with it when it's not the US.  It's always popular to bash the US, until the real shit hits the fan -- go ahead and yuk it up, pantie-wastes.

BTW:
- just because something is uncomfortable or unpleasant, does not necessarily mean that it is torture.  Some of the stuff that is being called "torture" is experienced by every soldier who goes through basic training (not to mention what goes on in SERE school) -- or maybe even your average frat party or summer football camp.
- I always thought that we should not have hid behind the "umd" argument for invading Iraq.  Let me rephrase that: I wish that the UN would have actually grabbed its balls and actually followed through with the umpteen resolutions they had against Iraq.  There were literally hundreds of occasions where the international community (i.e., the UN) would have been legally justified in toppling the Hussein regime -- it's a shame that Bush had to scare them in to it (when they should have come to it on their own at least 5 years prior).


and finally:
the next time I decide to get involved with a political thread, someone please remind me of this twilight zone.


The Guardian?  Really?  :nonono

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2009, 09:40:05 PM »
Quote from: wotmaniac
I believe that if they were worth capturing, then they were worth being declared POW's -- and then following through with all that that entails.
What kind of logic is that? No nation declared a war and a religious war these people claim to wage has nothing to do with what is normally considered a war. You know, like the events that happened after the attacks when Afghanistan and Iraq were overrun. That was war.

Quote
Oh, I forgot -- we only give tribunals to people who attack European countries (or their claimed territories).  Only the U.S. has to keep on the kid-gloves and act all cuddley.
What the dick man? Kid-gloves? The same gloves used to torture the shit out of these people or the ones causing all the birth defects in Fallujah now? Get a grip.

Quote
Never mind that the U.S. is no less cuddley than any other country (and more so than most of them) -- it's just more PC to put-up with it when it's not the US.  It's always popular to bash the US, until the real shit hits the fan -- go ahead and yuk it up, pantie-wastes.
Wow! This must be the biggest piece of crap I have seen in the world of arguments that is indeed filled with the infamous brown stuff. Just because others suck you have should do that as well? Good luck with your race to the bottom.

Quote
- just because something is uncomfortable or unpleasant, does not necessarily mean that it is torture.  Some of the stuff that is being called "torture" is experienced by every soldier who goes through basic training (not to mention what goes on in SERE school) -- or maybe even your average frat party or summer football camp.
Just because it is used in other situations as well doesn't change the international law. Honestly, the mere fact that some other groups, organisations and whatnot do it does not make it any less forbidden. You might also notice a pattern between frat parties and torture camps. In case you don't, let me elaborate: The first one is voluntary, the second is not.

Quote
- I always thought that we should not have hid behind the "umd" argument for invading Iraq.  Let me rephrase that: I wish that the UN would have actually grabbed its balls and actually followed through with the umpteen resolutions they had against Iraq.  There were literally hundreds of occasions where the international community (i.e., the UN) would have been legally justified in toppling the Hussein regime -- it's a shame that Bush had to scare them in to it (when they should have come to it on their own at least 5 years prior).
So... There are resolutions against Guantanamo and shitloads mroe against all the stuff Israel is doing. So hey, let's make the UN grab its balls and demolish Israel and the USA! It seems you should support this idea as well!

And yes, the Guardian. I am sorry about the fact that News Corp stuff is not for me. You might also notice that the only thing I said about the magazine was that it had an article about the law suit and everything apart from the decision of keeping it in New York was my own opinion, not Guardian's writing.
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links

Alastar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1028
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2009, 12:25:14 AM »
Also, for someone who is extremely keen on the idea of freedom wotmaniac, you are suprisingly intolerant of others freedom.

The line between intrusive legislation within a country, and invading another country to change their government because we think it's wrong is inexistent.  The only difference being that one is internal affairs, the other external.

Just asking for a bit of consistency. 

Also, the following text in no way back atrocities of any kind:

I think that there might be a BIT of a difference between a war that spanned the freaking lenght of the world from japan, to the U.S.A, to the whole of Europe, and any colonies near it (northern africa)  and that invoved crimes agaisnt humanity, like locking up naked people in a shower and gasing them, or eating the cadavers of your ennemies because they are animals, and should be threated thus.  So as I was saying, there IS a difference between said war, who caused over 25 million deaths, and the tragic death of a symbol of economic wealth that went up in a blaze of shattered security and cost 10 000 lives.  Such acts were also mostly done in retaliation to the way america trampled all over these guys freedoms.  I don't condone it, but i can understand it.

You have NO right to even COMPARE WW2 and it's toll on economy, politics, morals, demography and society as a whole, and the measures that were taken afterwards to punish the said offenders (those measures were ALSO agaisnt human rights, and I do not approve of them either, they just had a bit more CAUSE to be pissed)  and the raids of an organisation (NOT. A. COUNTRY.) who's only merit was to frighten the right nation by one little attack (compared to other things)

By comparing those two, you are commiting an affront to the history of the world, and I think it is not only insulting to us, but also insulting to everyone who died out there, and you, sir, are a morron because you dared go there.


Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2009, 12:57:13 AM »
Wait, when did he compare 9/11 to the Holocaust or WW2? I agree, it demonstrates a horrifying lack of understanding of what happened and/or an absurd egotism if he did, but I don't see it in this thread. To be fair, I do tend to start skimming midway through any of his paragraphs, but still, quote plz?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Alastar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1028
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2009, 01:03:18 AM »

Oh, I forgot -- we only give tribunals to people who attack European countries (or their claimed territories).  Only the U.S. has to keep on the kid-gloves and act all cuddley.


Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2009, 01:12:07 AM »
That's a comparison to WW2? I'm not exactly sure that's Godwinning himself. I assumed that was a reference to bombings that have occurred in Europe?

EDIT: I'm not exactly up to date on European Politics, so I'm unsure if tribunals like this have been used since Nuremberg. So if they haven't, then wotmaniac is bein an ass, yeah.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2009, 03:43:09 AM »
BTW:
- just because something is uncomfortable or unpleasant, does not necessarily mean that it is torture.  Some of the stuff that is being called "torture" is experienced by every soldier who goes through basic training (not to mention what goes on in SERE school) -- or maybe even your average frat party or summer football camp.
Waterboarding?  I think that goes a bit beyond discomfort.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2009, 03:46:03 AM »
Heh, WW II should be left out of this this, since the whatever ANY other country lost is utter bullshit compared to the losses of the USSR. One per 50 soldiers when compared to the USA?

But yeah, I wish I had the options available I think of wotmaniac's shit. I still try to avoid being banned (I suppose I am on a short leash)...
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Terrorist trials
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 03:46:34 AM »
BTW:
- just because something is uncomfortable or unpleasant, does not necessarily mean that it is torture.  Some of the stuff that is being called "torture" is experienced by every soldier who goes through basic training (not to mention what goes on in SERE school) -- or maybe even your average frat party or summer football camp.
Waterboarding?  I think that goes a bit beyond discomfort.
If the bullshit version in the Finnish army does, so does the actual thing.
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links