Author Topic: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32: XP Cost for Items  (Read 2093 times)

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bhu

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3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32: XP Cost for Items
« on: November 11, 2009, 09:52:35 AM »
If you were rebuilding 3.5, would crafters of magic items need to use XP to make them?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 05:58:20 AM by bhu »

veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2009, 10:27:16 AM »
I'd say no, requiring quests or whatever is fine, but allowing xp is both good and horrible in that it throws the power scaling rate. Let items cost a Legacy or Arsenal feat, if they're to be a permanent fixture of character power, but not crafting them.

While we're at it, junk the need for a feat just to craft an item. Leave that to other crafting prereqs.
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RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2009, 12:15:46 PM »
I say no because of two reasons (3.x specific):

1) You buy now and pay later, which really isn't much of a cost.  When you make the item, you lose XP but not a level, so you don't really pay anything.  All that happens is you might not level up with the group depending on how much XP you spent and how much you got that session.

2) Due to the way the XP tables work (lower level PCs get more XP for the same CR threat, and it takes less XP to gain a level at lower levels), this cost eventually disappears entirely.  It's the same reason everyone loves LA buy-back so much.  It eventually dissolves the entire cost.

So the end result is a time investment that eventually pays itself off entirely.  So, you have three scenarios:

1) Very short term game (one session or so): magic items are essentially free!

2) Semi short term game (a few levels): magic items come at a semi-annoying cost.

3) Long term games (10+ level span): magic items are free after a few sessions!
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Midnight_v

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2009, 01:00:03 PM »
I think they perhaps should cost... time...
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dman11235

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2009, 04:13:33 PM »
They should probably cost xp, but the way it ends up working is that they should have some sort of character cost to just use.  So you create it with xp/gp/ap/hp/whatever you want as the creation cost (really I think a small amount of xp and maybe some sort of semi-quest, and then gp for creating the actual item or just plain buying one).  Part of my overall plan to make gp less useful.  Well, not less useful, but less important to character power.  Infinite gp loops and such might exist, but having a totally mundane flying castle with a 100 square mile courtyard is impressive, but ultimately useless.
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Havok4

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2009, 05:34:48 PM »
I think they perhaps should cost... time...

Which would be just whatever downtime the DM gives, so that is basically free as well, it just gives control of it to the DM.

Pteryx

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2009, 02:12:39 AM »
They should cost something that hurts to lose -- at least, permanent or multi-use ones should.  Not so much scrolls and potions.  Pre-3e, there was the brutal cost of permanent points of Con, which I feel is too mean, not to mention lacking scaling (the question back in the day was always, "Why would anyone make a +1 sword?").  3.x's XP cost is an improvement, but has its subtler, more complex problems (aside from "but it shouldn't coooost anythiiiing!!!").  Then there's 4e, where gold is the only cost, but the world conspires in sometimes mind-bending ways to make sure that PCs can't sell anything for any more than 20% retail for any reason... no, just no.

Short of some kind of metagame-mechanical cost, though, all that comes to mind that PCs could pay in is spell slots...  At least that makes good in-world sense, though.  -- Pteryx

veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2009, 04:41:02 AM »
I think both gold and xp are barking up the wrong tree. What you need is not a cost to MAKE or BUY an item, but to KEEP a magic item. Just use feats to track ownership(retrainable in the event of permanent loss), all other items are transient and don't generally stick around long or provide their full effect.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2009, 10:06:03 AM »
There is another option.  It simply costs feats.

Several other people had an idea that items could have both some minor static ability, and some latent, scaling ability.  For example, perhaps a Flaming Sword would be a magic sword that deals some extra fire damage with the potential to shoot a blast of fire out every so often doing level-appropriate damage based on the user's level.  Now, the wielder could use the normal extra fire damage effect on his own, but he needs to invest a feat into the item to unlock the fireblast feature.  So under this concept, the idea is the item is granting some versatility to the character that he wouldn't already have.

The basic idea on cost is that the caster simply takes an item creation feat (thus losing out on some other level-appropriate feat) and makes items at some cost (time/gp/whatever), but the feat he took was the real cost.  The caster doesn't need to spend XP on the item because the wielder spends a feat to truly utilize the item.

Of course, this is a rough concept which needs other things worked out.  For example, what happens if the wielder loses the item somehow?  Perhaps he can opt to train out that feat with a week of downtime or something.  Maybe he can hold onto that "item attuning" feat, and use it on another item later.  So, the amount of items you can fully use is based on how many feats you spend to use them.

This relies on two things:
1) PCs getting enough feats to want to do this
2) Feats and items being balance

It's a definite paradigm shift, and would need some work.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2009, 11:01:50 AM »
Several other people had an idea that items could have both some minor static ability, and some latent, scaling ability.  For example, perhaps a Flaming Sword would be a magic sword that deals some extra fire damage with the potential to shoot a blast of fire out every so often doing level-appropriate damage based on the user's level.  Now, the wielder could use the normal extra fire damage effect on his own, but he needs to invest a feat into the item to unlock the fireblast feature.  So under this concept, the idea is the item is granting some versatility to the character that he wouldn't already have.
Heck, I'd make the base flaming sword ability simply deal fire or regular swordy damage, with feats unlocking having fire on top of slashy, as well as various other powers, depending on character level.

If feats scale, getting them to line up should work nicely.
Though you'd probably want the feat to grant a scaling number of Equipment Points, so players have a pick of one super awesome sword, or a tamer assortment of magical equipment. Or take the feat multiple times to go around with a king's armory(though in this case you might want to limit how many points can go into a single item by level).
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

dman11235

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2009, 02:26:36 PM »
The problem with not using xp/gp/etc. when crafting a magic item is the same as not paying at all for creating a mundane item, you're getting something for nothing.  You've got to have some cost to create, otherwise you've got free wealth.  In an insanely easy way that anyone can do.  You've got to at least pay for the mundane material, and if the item's got a basic ability that anyone can use, you've got to pay for that too.  How much and with what is the problem.  The first half is easy: use the mundane item crafting rules.  Second half is what's being discussed.

Another option that I forgot about until right now was have WBL be a hard cap on the magic items you could have.  Mundane aren't limited by it.  This plays on the idea that you have to give part of your own power to utilize magic items, so every magic item will have a magic cost and a mundane cost.  The mundane is payed in gp (which is not restricted, and some might not have that cost, it really depends), and magic is payed from a pool (or adds up with a total that can't go over the cap).  I believe consumable magic items were temporary losses from the total, and when you used up the consumable, the points were replaced.  Or something like that anyways.  I'll see if I can't dig up the thread.
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Bauglir

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 05:59:36 PM »
My thoughts on the matter.

New thoughts: all items that replicate a spell effect have charges. Ring of Invisibility? Might have 10 charges. No unlimited use items. Passive items can still exist, they're just always on, but the difference between a Potion of Cure Light Wounds and a Healing Belt is what I'm trying to address here. Make a meditation ritual that takes an hour to restore power to charged items, compared to the much longer ritual to completely uninvest your points. Until you do this, the points that had been invested in their charges are inaccessible. Figure out the cost of passive items with a spell effect as if making an item with the equivalent of Persistent Spell (which may not actually exist, but anyway). Magic items aren't limited by this; you can make an actual Ring of Invisibility that works whenever you put it on if you put the effort in.

Crafting Real Magic Items: First and foremost, it is not a downtime activity. It is a, "This is my life's work" activity. Make it take months, minimum, just for putting together an at-will cantrip. 9th level spell whenever the hell you feel like it? That's the sort of endeavor that will take the rest of your un-lifespan (silly mortals are gonna die too fast) to pull off and likely kill you. So there's that. Next, if the rest of your wealth is directly keyed off XP, then paying XP to make items is a great way of standing still. Need a way to make this work better, though, because hanging back a level does still provide permanent benefits after the first time you do it. Necessitate a feat for making magic items; doesn't have to be a different one for each type, though. Just "Craft Magic Item". Pay for mundane costs, such as the masterwork sword you're gonna make shoot lasers. No discount for restricting use to certain creatures. Crafting an intelligent magic item kills the crafter and traps their soul in the item as its new intelligence (way to dodge death, etc). Maybe make magic items immune to typical antimagic fields (the item gives the magic an anchor in reality that allows it to continue to function, but the stuff most adventurers have is really just slightly mystical and far less tightly bound, so it still gets suppressed).

What I'm ultimately aiming for is a system where the only people crafting magic items are people who either need people who aren't them to get the items, want to immortalize themselves through their work, or have some other all-consuming reason to put forth the effort. If PCs want to, they can, but chances are it shouldn't be the focus of the campaign. You may also want to include weird components that people need to quest for.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 32
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2009, 10:34:38 PM »
I have a hard time answering this because it depends heavily on how XP and levels work:

1. If levels cost experience instead of being gained at a threshold, the paying-it-forward problem diminishes.
2. If experience is gained on a static, ECL basis (A.K.A. you gain X experience for defeating an encounter of equivalent challenge to yourself, less for those lower than you, more for those higher than you, and the values never change) the problem of XP inflation overshadowing the cost of magic items also disappears.
3. If power increase per level is going to be exponential, as it is now, the XP costs of each new level and magic items appropriate to that level need to be exponential as well.

Making all of these true can cause other problems, though:
I. New levels take exponentially longer to achieve than previous ones. (This isn't necessarily a problem, so much as a new design protocol.)
II. Negative levels will need a new mechanic.
III. Unless we want magic items bought early in a character's career to be a permanent waste of XP once they become obsolete, we'll need to define a way for that XP to be refundable. (and using this method to gain XP from magic items created by others would be an evil act, since you're essentially eating a bit of someone's soul)

It's certainly workable, but whether we choose to tweak the current system or invent a new one it's going to take some effort to balance.