Author Topic: Change to spell saving throws  (Read 1456 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ashtagon

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 79
    • The Piazza
Change to spell saving throws
« on: November 08, 2009, 04:54:45 AM »
Current rule: Spell save DCs are currently 10 + relevant caster ability modifier + spell level. In some cases, "spell level" is replaced by half character level", which provides nearly identical results. Certain feats may modify this.

Proposed Rule: Flat DC 15. Certain feats may modify this. A roll of 1 always fails for a saving throw, and a 20 always succeeds.

What I Expect: This will dramatically weaken save or die spells at high levels, making intelligent casters switch to hp-attacking spells, thus bringing them back into the same game as the rest of the party. Low-level save-or-suck spells will be a bit stronger, but the nature of such low-level spells is such that intelligent cooperation from a team can normally mitigate their effects in most cases, so I'm not too concerned about that specific aspect.

Any unforeseen consequences?


veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Change to spell saving throws
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 07:22:36 AM »
Well, personally, I'd just skip saves entirely, and work off metamagiced low level save half/save none spells. For save or dies, just pick the lowest level one ,and find a way to provoke 20+ saves.

Assuming I was trying to break it that is.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Change to spell saving throws
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 08:15:54 AM »
It just skews SoDs so they're awesome at low levels and worthless at high levels.  So, I'd switch to stuff that doesn't allow for saves (Shivering Touch) and stuff that doesn't directly hit enemies (Minor Creation, Shapechange, Planar Binding).  Since the non direct spells are mostly the strongest spells anyway, I don't see how this change is helpful at all.  In the end, you're likely to just push the casters towards indirect spell usage which is more powerful anyway.

JaronK

Ashtagon

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 79
    • The Piazza
Re: Change to spell saving throws
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2009, 09:28:40 AM »
Well, personally, I'd just skip saves entirely, and work off metamagiced low level save half/save none spells. For save or dies, just pick the lowest level one ,and find a way to provoke 20+ saves.

Assuming I was trying to break it that is.

I'm not sure how meta-magicking a low level spell would get around this change to spell saving throws.

About the only way to provoke 20+ saves is to cast 20+ spells, which not only takes 20+ rounds, but burns a considerable hole in your workday.

It just skews SoDs so they're awesome at low levels and worthless at high levels.  So, I'd switch to stuff that doesn't allow for saves (Shivering Touch) and stuff that doesn't directly hit enemies (Minor Creation, Shapechange, Planar Binding).  Since the non direct spells are mostly the strongest spells anyway, I don't see how this change is helpful at all.  In the end, you're likely to just push the casters towards indirect spell usage which is more powerful anyway.

JaronK

Just re-read shivering touch. That is one helluva broken spell  :o

I don't mind wizards doing the indirect stuff such as summons and buffs, but when their direct attacks are all-or-nothings, they aren't playing in the same fight as the other characters anymore. I don't even mind that the indirect attacks may be more powerful, since buffs and stuff still mean they are doing teamwork


veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Change to spell saving throws
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2009, 09:49:35 AM »
Quote
I'm not sure how meta-magicking a low level spell would get around this change to spell saving throws.
Twinning, Repeating, Quickening all let you deliver more doses.
Chaining lets you share the pain across multiple opponents and grind for that 1.
As DCs don't matter, the barrier to metamagicking a low level SoD is gone(crap DCs for your level)
Combining Quickening with one of the others lets you provoke more saves to kill.
It's inefficient, but then the normal ways of making SoDs useful are similar(spamming to force a failed save,debuffing before putting the nail in the coffin.)

And as JaronK said, SoDs are just a hair above direct damage in usefulness. And the Fighter and Rogue are better at direct damage than casters.
The best spells never needed saves anyway, though direct damage and SoDs get torpedoed, so tactics remain mostly unchanged.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."